[FRIAM] Spandrel

[Steve Smith]

In the spirit of StephenG's dual field theory, I suggest we "verbize all
the nouns" and vice-versa and the answer will emerge, even it the
resulting text sounds a bit too much like reading a Dr. Seuss book on
Psilocybin whilst huffing Helium.  

I must force myself into bed now, I strongly suspect that staying up
late is very hazardous to my posting style and proliferation.   A good
night's sleep may relieve many of you from wearing out your <delete> or
<next> buttons.  I think my helium tank and mushroom-log are where I
left them when I got up this morning.


On 3/14/21 11:56 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> All==
>
>  
>
> I want to call attention to Dave’s quandary at the end of his last
> message to me.   If genes are not “for” traits but for processes, how
> does natural selection manage to “pick out” traits.   How do you take
> a vastly interacting causal web and get additivity of variance out of
> it.  It seems to me that Steve’s pathway talk might lead to an answer
> to that question.  Of what process is natural selection the PRODUCT? 
> Who or what selects the selector? 
>
>  
>
> Nick
>
>  
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 14, 2021 11:01 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Spandrel
>
>  
>
> Steve, 
>
> Yes exactly! Humans were not selected "for noses." Humans were (the
> argument goes) selected for shorter jaws. The "protruding" nose is
> what you end up with after selection shrinks the jaw. So, if you
> notice that humans have noses, and you jump straight to asking "Why
> did protruding noses evolve? What adaptive function do they serve?"
> you are barking up the wrong tree. Ditto impacted wisdom teeth. It
> would be pretty silly to assert that impacted wisdom teeth were
> adaptive, even though they likely resulted from natural selection
> through the same pressures that led to noses.
>
>  
>
> Now, the problem with the "nose" example is that, given the variation
> in noses around the world, it is actually quite plausible that nose
> size and shape IS adaptive. But that's a different issue ;- ) 
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2021 at 12:50 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com
> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>
>     Nick -
>
>     Not to beat a dead Spandrel, but the nose example doesn't wash
>     with me.  
>
>     In many familiar animals, the nose is perched on the end of a
>     snout, and
>     it was the snout that was deprecated in us to the point that the
>     nostril-holes with various adaptive properties (downward facing to
>     keep
>     rain out, hair-lined and snotty to trap dust and pollen, (mildly)
>     turbinated to support humidity/temperature regulation, sensitive to
>     support "feeling" things with one's proboscis before we smash the
>     whole
>     face into it,  loaded with chemically sensitive cells for "smell",
>     etc)
>     are highly diminished compared to various creatures like a daschund or
>     an elephant or an anteater.   Our nose still has significant
>     affordances
>     similar/familiar to those listed above (serviceable smeller, filter,
>     heat/humidity exchanger, etc ) even if it is not at all prehensile or
>     particularly discriminating and if humans have a snout at all, it is a
>     highly diminished one.  
>
>     I suspect references to "being nosy" and "sticking our noses in
>     other's
>     business" is borrowed from watching our snoutful familiars like horses
>     or camels or racoons or dogs "nosing around".  The proboscis of
>     our nose
>     *points* where our eyes are looking (somewhat) so that conflation
>     may be
>     mildly meaningful?
>
>     Does "butting out" connote backing out butt-first when one recognizes
>     their nosing around isn't welcome?
>
>     <beep><beep><beep>
>
>      - Sneeze
>
>
>
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