[FRIAM] something serious from something silly

Sat May 1 13:59:06 EDT 2021

Hi Nick, Thanks for correcting me, what I meant above was a species with
intelligent members.

On Sat, 1 May 2021 at 18:43, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, All,
>
>
>
> With out appearing too persnickety, could I ask that we keep a distinction
> in mind in this discussion:  between  an intelligent species and a species
> with intelligent members.  A species is  intelligent to the degree that it
> seeks out points in adaptation space where it is continued.  It’s easy to
> declare a species as intelligent because we know what it is maximizing.
> (Well, relatively easy: what do we say when a species divides into two:
> that it has failed or succeeded?) Working out whether an individual is
> intelligent is more tricky until we have decided what “should” be maximized
> by an individual.  Don’t tell me survival, because NO individuals survive.
> Don’t tell me reproduction, because no individual diploid organism
> reproduces.  Don’t tell me “genes”, because genes are not like so many cold
> coins that can be hoarded in a dragon’s cave.  The whole area of
> intelligence in evolution is a social Darwinist, class-ridden,  cesspool of
> confusion and I urge you to all think carefully before you flush yourselves
> down this particular toilet.
>
>
>
> But I love you all!
>
>
>
> *Nick Dixit*
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 1, 2021 1:14 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly
>
>
>
> My question is what is an intelligent species?
>
> Here on earth we observe that there are two mechanisms to develop
> technology: evolution and cognition. If we define an intelligent species as
> one that uses cognition to develop technology, then neither octopi nor any
> other species on earth are intelligent, because we don't observe them using
> cognition to develop technology. Even if we decode hidden structure in
> octopi's communication and even if they communicate deep emotional issues
> very eloquently, according to this definition they would not be an
> intelligent species.
>
> But, of course an intelligent species could be defined differently. For
> example, natural selection could evolve a species with  hidden order or
> structure in their communication and they could, for argument's sake,
> eloquently communicate their emotions via color.  A species having a deep
> emotional discussion using this type of communication, even without the
> ability to use cognition to develop technology could be defined as an
> intelligent species. Why not? Let's do a thought experiment where octopi
> have this and robots are doing the mundane stuff like providing food and
> shelter and health care and humans have deep emotional discussions with
> octopi, it would be useful to consider octopi as an intelligent species.
>
>
>
> On Sat, 1 May 2021 at 05:18, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do chameleons see what's under their tails?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 9:12 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Octopus ground mimicry is the thing I cannot understand.   How do you copy
> what you are not looking at?
>
> n
>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 8:57 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly
>
> A discussion of UFOs occupied some time in FRIAM today, including the
> observation that despite looking for "intelligent signals" ala SETI have
> failed.
>
> Made me think of octopi (& other cephalopods) that communicate with
> brilliant displays of rapidly changing color. We think that these displays
> are more than reactive, that they are "intelligent communication." Mostly,
> it seems to me, we infer this because we have a lot of context, including
> interacting octopi, but if all we had was the "signal" absent the context,
> would we recognize it as "intelligent?"
>
> I am not phrasing the question very well, but if we had nothing except a
> 5-minute video of an octopus' surface changing color, would we be able to
> detect a hidden order or structure that would allow a reasonable
> determination that it originated from an intelligent species?
>
> davew
>
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