[FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Sat May 8 02:30:53 EDT 2021
Dave -
I think I have referenced these before but your anecdotes here remind
me of Jim Scott's "Against the Grain" and "The Art of Not Being
Governed". I wonder if you are familiar with any of his work?
- Steve
On 5/7/21 8:02 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Russ,
>
> Your intuition is partly correct: these societies, for the most part,
> were embedded in an extensive cultural web of kinship, norms, rituals,
> world-view — like any culture or any people. It appears to us that
> their culture was more pervasive, expressed more consistently, and
> "enforced" more dramatically, but that is not necessarily true. It
> would be the case that those participating in those cultures would not
> experience their culture as, in any way, oppressive. In fact, they
> would be just as oblivious to their culture as we are to our own.
>
> None of these cultures were authoritarian in any sense. Leadership was
> situational - a "war chief" when threatened, a "forager chief" during
> the harvest season. The only permanent leadership position would be
> the "shaman" who was, more often than not, female.
>
> Some of the societies were hierarchical and authoritarian to some
> degree, like the Inca. But even they were able to establish and
> maintain a vast trading network from southern Chile to Meso-America
> and even into what is not the southwest US - all without money.
> Quiipu, knotted strings, recorded facts or information, like how much
> of what commodity was sent where by whom, but no concept of money or
> 'exchange rate'.
>
> All of these societies were 'brittle' in the sense that none of them
> survived encounter with European colonizers.
>
> If you ever have the inclination, explore water management on Bali.
> The indigenous culture allocated water among rice fields based on a
> complicated system of myths, rituals, and interpreted omens, a
> classical intra-cultural solution, The Dutch came along and
> implemented a "scientific" water management system and immediately
> lost 50% of rice production and initiated a decade of near starvation
> before they gave up and let the priests take over water management again.
>
> Bali is an excellent example of how an optimum solution to a complex
> (in the SFI sense) problem "evolves" over generations of trial and
> error with successes preserved via myth and ritual.
>
> A related curiosity (for extra credit) — in every hunter-gatherer
> society of which anthropology is aware, the men hunt and the women
> gather. To date, no one has been able to explain why. It cannot be
> explained by maternal roles or physical capacity. The range of
> theories proposed and debunked over the years is quite large and often
> very amusing.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 10:20 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>> Thanks, David.
>>
>> I have no background in Economic Anthropology and am interested in
>> hearing about societies that function effectively without something
>> like money. My intuition (perhaps wrong) is that the only ways to
>> make that work over extended periods are rigid societal structures
>> (enforced, perhaps by powerful, well-established cultural norms) or
>> force/power (as in authoritarian societies). In both cases, it seems
>> likely (although, again, I could be wrong) that such societies will
>> be quite static, inflexible, and brittle in the face of challenges.
>> Are the societies you cite different from such paradigms?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 7:30 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm
>> <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Russ raised the question about alternatives to capitalism. A
>> quick perusal of a good Economic Anthropology textbook can
>> provide numerous examples. Many of which worked at a scale far
>> greater than 150 people. Example: an Aboriginal economic system
>> that incorporated multiple tribes in an area from the north coast
>> of Australia to the interior of the continent; or, pre-Columbian
>> Incas.
>>
>> These systems were established and maintained by being embedded
>> in the overall culture: i.e. because of a vast web of kinship,
>> inter-personal, obligation, concrete resources, myth, and ritual.
>> In contrast, modern economic systems (capitalism or Marxism, or
>> ...) are divorced from "reality" and exist in a world of
>> abstractions.
>>
>> Christopher Alexander illustrated this distinction with regard to
>> architecture and the difference between what he called the
>> selfconscious and the non-selfconscious process of building. In
>> the latter, the knowledge of how to build and maintain a house,
>> for example, was embedded in myth and ritual and "common sense
>> knowledge." Ideal designs, ones adapted to the context — physical
>> and cultural — evolved over time and preserved by being embedded
>> in the culture.
>>
>> Selfconscious design is epitomized by academic schools of
>> architecture where abstract concepts of design arise and "good"
>> design is judged by conformity to the abstractions and is
>> divorced from reality.
>>
>> Similarly with economic systems. The root of all evil is money
>> which is an abstraction. How much "wealth" is grounded in
>> abstractions of abstractions of abstractions in capitalist
>> economic systems? Marxism might be marginally better than
>> capitalism simply because it has never had the time an
>> opportunity to develop the same kind of meta-abstraction
>> structures that are prevalent in capitalism.
>>
>> Human evolved a left-brain and it is our ruination.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 6, 2021, at 5:21 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> Hi Pieter,
>>>
>>> Not that it matters (to anything), but No, zero support for
>>> Chomsky from me.
>>>
>>> He is the archetype of a bully and a demagogue. It was his MO
>>> in linguistics his entire career, a field that was susceptible
>>> to that sort of thing, and to which he has done great harm.
>>> It’s a shame, too, because as you say, he is smart, and some of
>>> his early ideas were interesting and insightful.
>>>
>>> That is not an ad hominem to the side, it is a propos de his
>>> political writing. I do think some of his criticisms of the
>>> predatoriness of the American system are correct, and they
>>> benefit from his intelligence and energy. But I think your
>>> criticism that all he does is stand in judgment from the
>>> sidelines and not bear human responsibility for what happens
>>> when you get things wrong is just the right one.
>>>
>>> Have you noticed that there are some people who seem deeply
>>> grounded in a concern for others’ wellbeing, and seem to work
>>> tirelessly to help? I have the impression that, for instance,
>>> Karen Bass (a US congresswoman who was for a time considered for
>>> Vice President) is such a person. The best kind of people who
>>> rise within civil rights movements and causes. I am struck by
>>> how often they have no interest in blaming and judging; it is a
>>> distraction from the work they are trying to do.
>>>
>>> On the other side, there are people who choose causes that may
>>> have righteous elements, but seem to choose them for the
>>> reinforcement of identity it gives them to stand in condemning
>>> judgment on others. That is all I can see in Chomsky. It
>>> doesn’t mean everything he says is wrong, and criticisms have a
>>> place. But a premise that there is any kind of anarchism that
>>> doesn’t instantly get taken over by gangs seems way too
>>> anti-empirical to be claimed as a “smart” position.
>>>
>>> But fair enough to argue the claims,
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 6, 2021, at 4:28 PM, Pieter Steenekamp
>>>> <pieters at randcontrols.co.za
>>>> <mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a little book On Anarchism by Noam Chomsky.
>>>>
>>>> Chomsky is IMO a very smart person and it's maybe worthwhile to
>>>> pay attention to his ideas?
>>>>
>>>> Although I don't want to reject his ideas, my mind is open, I'm
>>>> not convinced it will work out as intended. The problem is he
>>>> offers anarchism as an idea without specifics of how to
>>>> implement it and how the valid concerns about it can be addressed.
>>>>
>>>> At least, Chomsky's abhorrence of capitalism will maybe find
>>>> fertile ground among some members of this group?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 6 May 2021 at 08:34, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Eric, You explained many of the problems in much more depth
>>>> and detail than I did. Well done. Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021, 4:46 PM David Eric Smith
>>>> <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, agreed, Russ, with amendments.
>>>>
>>>> I wrote some long awful thing on this yesterday and had
>>>> the good manners to delete without sending.
>>>>
>>>> I think capitalism isn’t even about money; there are
>>>> two issues: capitalist property rights and monetary or
>>>> financial layers in the economy.
>>>>
>>>> I know Glen doesn’t like the terms “means of
>>>> production”, but we can capture a big subset with an
>>>> everyday term like “tools”. Tools are durable things,
>>>> built at cost with the intent that they can be
>>>> repeatedly used. They are not a monetary store of
>>>> value, but they are, in other material senses, a store
>>>> of transformational power over things one wants to
>>>> transform.
>>>>
>>>> But as soon as there is a tool, there is a decision
>>>> problem over how it can be used and by whom. I think
>>>> “ownership rights” is the name we give to any solution
>>>> to (meaning, “commitment to some protocol for”) that
>>>> problem. With ownership then comes at least an
>>>> incentive, and in many real, limited-information
>>>> settings, a realized ability, for the de facto owner of
>>>> a tool to guide where the productive output using the
>>>> tool goes. It’s kind of the default basic-layer
>>>> dynamic that follows from tool creation and tool
>>>> ownership. We can understand how tricky that
>>>> instability can be to manage from study of these
>>>> intricate and fancy mechanisms in hunter-gatherer
>>>> societies to blunt the concentration of power
>>>> (arrow-sharing that guides who gets meat; the kind of
>>>> thing Sam Bowles studies). Ownership provides a
>>>> channel for itself to concentrate, and to concentrate
>>>> other things (obliquely, referring to “wealth” by
>>>> whatever measure). That seems to me the essence of the
>>>> capitalist problem, which then takes various forms
>>>> depending on social institutional choices.
>>>>
>>>> It seems to me that we don’t want to give up tools, so
>>>> we can’t give up the problem of committing to some
>>>> solution for ownership, and with that, we have to face
>>>> up to the complex problem of regulating against the
>>>> tendency of ownership to concentrate its de facto power
>>>> by redirecting the proceeds of things produced.
>>>>
>>>> This is why I don’t buy, as an empirical matter,
>>>> Pieter’s optimism about things’ becoming too cheap to
>>>> meter. In some ways, and in projections to some
>>>> dimensions, yes, that is a fair description. Computer
>>>> operating systems used to be pay-per-version, now many
>>>> are free. Communication used to be charge-per-use, now
>>>> much of it is paid for by advertising (“free” only in
>>>> an extreme distortion of what dimensions carry value,
>>>> but nonetheless one that has taken most people some
>>>> years to become aware of). But the very way the rise
>>>> of the concentration of wealth in the Tech sector
>>>> before, and even more grotesquely so during the
>>>> pandemic, is raising all the old arguments about the
>>>> capitalist class, seems to me to show even in quite
>>>> abstract domains of information and coordination
>>>> services, that tool ownership has default instabilities
>>>> that always act unless we can find effective regulatory
>>>> strategies to blunt them.
>>>>
>>>> In this sense I think Glen does make the most important
>>>> point, which is that if there is a strong argument
>>>> about UBI, its context is overwhelmingly about the
>>>> problem that innovations in absolute output seem always
>>>> coupled to concentrations of inequality. Relative to
>>>> that, almost everything Shapiro said in that piece was
>>>> tropes that, at 15 places in the short talk, gave me an
>>>> internal impulse to go cite the person who shows they
>>>> are tropes by providing the good-faith and well
>>>> thought-out counterargument. It is a bit sad that Yang
>>>> doesn’t feel able (and maybe isn’t able) to take that
>>>> bull by the horns and say that this is where the UBI
>>>> question lives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To me, money is a somewhat separate question: a
>>>> mechanism for the distribution of permissions,
>>>> communication, authority, etc., which makes certain
>>>> coordination problems tractable that otherwise wouldn’t
>>>> be. I don’t think we want to give up the ability to
>>>> use that, and even if some did, so many others don’t
>>>> that there probably is no path for society that keeps
>>>> it gone. But, as many in the thread have so well said
>>>> already, money is a terrible dimension-reducer, and the
>>>> problems of “store of transformation power” that come
>>>> with tool ownership, then take on new versions as
>>>> “store of value” which is a kind of exchangeable access
>>>> to ownership rights over everything. But again, if we
>>>> either can’t or (I will accept the position of) don’t
>>>> want to give up what it allows us to do, we again face
>>>> the complexity and difficulty of inventing or evolving
>>>> (in whatever combinations) regulatory strategies to try
>>>> to limits its default instabilities.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, to say I agree with Russ’s motivation to push
>>>> this point.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 6, 2021, at 8:15 AM, Russ Abbott
>>>>> <russ.abbott at gmail.com <mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Earlier, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ said: If we're stuck with
>>>>> capitalism, then I'm for UBI. If we can get out from
>>>>> under capitalism, then I'm not. Nick added: it is the
>>>>> "triumph" of capitalism to reduce all relationships to
>>>>> money.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if this is not assuming that there is an
>>>>> alternative to what you are calling
>>>>> /capitalism/. As uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ points out, co-ops can work
>>>>> on relatively small scales, but if we are going to
>>>>> live in groups of larger than ~150 people, how are you
>>>>> imagining that we will arrange interactions without
>>>>> something like money? Even on small scales, how will a
>>>>> collective without money organize itself in anything
>>>>> other than a very static structure? And on larger
>>>>> scales, what is the organizing principle other than
>>>>> power? It's not clear to me how an alternative
>>>>> that uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ is supposing possible will actually
>>>>> work. uǝlƃ ↙↙↙, would you mind elaborating what you
>>>>> have in mind?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Russ Abbott
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, May 5, 2021 at 2:17 PM jon zingale
>>>>> <jonzingale at gmail.com <mailto:jonzingale at gmail.com>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, I think it is safe to say that "huge costs"
>>>>> are a sign of progress in
>>>>> the same sense that smoke is a sign of fire.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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