[FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

[Prof David West]

I cannot make any general comments re the role of pervasive access to the supernatural in a society because my direct experience is limited to one instance. In fact, I know of only two extant examples within the Judaeo-Christian tradition (Mormons and the Society of Friends/Quakers) and one extinct example (Gnosticism).

You are absolutely correct vis-a-vis defectors. I am certain that there are more Mormon sects, many of which are no larger than an extended family, than in any other religion, including 2000 year old Catholicism. Absolutely sure on an per-capita basis.

Surprisingly, perhaps, there has been but one schism in Mormonism, the founding of the Reformed Church of Latter Day Saints, and that was more of a succession issue (Brigham Young won and 95% of the church membership followed him to Utah).

The doctrine of polygyny offers further illustration of the issue.

Within Mormonism, there was access to a transpersonal objective truth; at least in the sense that it would have been "surprising" if different people talking to the same God, received significantly variable revelations.  Brigham Young excoriated those that did not study and pray and understand doctrinal matters; but who simply obeyed whatever the leadership revealed to them.

Most of the really interesting examples and issues and resolutions occurred before Utah statehood, and you would be hard pressed to find even vestiges in the Church and Church Membership today. And, as I said at the beginning one example, however interesting is insufficient basis for generalization.

davew


On Sun, May 9, 2021, at 4:31 PM, ⛧ glen wrote:
> Hm. OK. The problem I see with allowing a supernatural component into 
> the legal system is a lack of access to a "touchstone", a transpersonal 
> objective truth. Supernatural access, even if such exists, is 
> notoriously exploitable by defectors, perhaps including a cabal of 
> crony Bishops. By disallowing it, we scope the legal system to some 
> ground truth, some universally verifiable fact.
> 
> I know you have myriad arguments against our current attempts at ground 
> truth (aka science). And as a pluralist and agnostic, I'm sympathetic. 
> But such skepticism doesn't give us the justification for ignoring how 
> helpful such a ground truth would be in limiting defection in a 
> multidimensional "market".
> 
> On May 9, 2021 8:13:24 AM PDT, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
> >With one slight modification, I agree completely with glen's five
> >principles. The exception: *"there is nothing supernatural, so all
> >solutions have to be built on science."* The closest thing to a
> >"cultural universal" (a practice, norm, technology, custom, etc. that
> >is shared by all cultures) is a belief in a *supernatural*. I see no
> >problem in basing a "solution" — a non-money-based social structure —
> >on such a belief.
> >
> >The most prominent examples of societies/cultures that do not use money
> >internally, would be the Mennonites and the Amish. Both do use money
> >externally, i.e. for interactions with outsiders. An example that I am
> >more familiar with is the **United Order** established by Brigham
> >Young.
> >
> >Orderville is a small town about 20 miles south of where I live and was
> >the last community to practice the United Order. Just before its
> >demise, the community numbered in several thousands and engaged in
> >enterprises that included mining, ranching, lumber mill, textile and
> >garment manufacturing, cotton growing, mercantile and trade, etc. The
> >geographic range of the community covered all of Arizona north of the
> >Grand Canyon, as far as present day Las Vegas, and the southern third
> >of Utah.
> >
> >It was a Mormon community and all shared a common belief in a
> >'supernatural' and that belief played an integral role in the
> >organization of the community. For example, the Bishop's Storehouse —
> >both literal and metaphorical — was the repository of all goods and
> >produce from the community and the Bishop, a religious leader, was
> >charged with protection and distribution of contents among the populace
> >according to need. But a Bishop is not a full-time religious figure —
> >the church, even today, has less than 100 people who are 'paid clergy'
> >— and not an authoritarian figure. Although there was a division of
> >labor (men seldom worked in the communal kitchen and women seldom
> >engaged in ranching or mining) it was primarily an egalitarian society.
> >Women also tended to exert civil and social authority over the
> >community while men exercised religious authority.
> >
> >Everyone, including children from age 8 and older (age of baptism), had
> >direct access to the supernatural (to God) and was expected to use that
> >access to determine correct actions and make decisions with regard
> >every aspect of life. 
> >
> >All of this functioned (internally) without any form of money (or
> >similar abstraction).
> >
> >Orderville was disbanded when the US Government took control of Utah,
> >took away women's right to vote, confiscated property of anyone with
> >any connection to polygyny, and imposed a Washington-based civil
> >authority.
> >
> >Because the "economy" of these cultures is based on a mixture of
> >balanced and general reciprocity, there is no need for money within the
> >society.
> >
> >There is no reason that these cultures could not scale to at least
> >'national' scales except, perhaps, those like the Amish that eschew
> >technology and the "modern."
> >
> >for what it is worth,
> >
> >davew
> >
> -- 
> glen ⛧
> 
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