[FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

[Russ Abbott]

As you say, your alternatives are "money writ large." So how does that
eliminate money? It just changes its form.

I don't understand how options further your position. How do you trade them
without something like money?

-- Russ

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 8:03 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, I agree it's difficult. And I'm not suggesting I have any knowledge
> or expertise. But the principles I listed were intended as a foundation.
> Given that foundation, it's difficult for me to imagine *not* having
> anything other than money in common with any other trader. That extreme
> case, where one party has *zero* commonality with another party prevents us
> from realizing that in the overwhelming majority of concrete situations,
> there's significant commonality between the parties.
>
> So, that's not the problem. The problem is in the quantification of
> goods/skills being traded. While it's reasonable to, say, trade a pickup
> truck for an espresso machine, matching pickup trucks to espresso machines
> (rust spots vs pressure specs, etc.), the measure that is money allows us
> to quantify them. E.g. my pickup truck is worth 10 of your espresso
> machines. That's the technology we call money.
>
> A significant other aspect is that money (at least fiat) can be
> trasnmitted at light speed, which allows me to trade 1 *virtual* pickup
> truck for 10 *virtual* espresso machines and TRUST that reciprocity exists.
>
> But both quantification and virtuality can be (are regularly) implemented
> in other dimensions. Money isn't absolutely, unquestionably necessary for
> them. (Though it's important that money may, in fact, be the best, most
> efficient/effective for some trades.)
>
> And to go back to the extreme case, where the parties have 0 in common,
> literally *any* other dimension can be used as a 3rd, connective, material.
> Gold is a good one. Wooden chits might work. Marks on a wooden stick,
> maybe? 8^D All these are "money", writ large. But we don't have to think of
> them that way. They are reservoirs of value. Even if I don't actually
> *want* 10 espresso machines, I might trade my truck for them because I know
> 10 locals who do want them. 5 of those 10 locals will give me, say,
> playstation DVDs. 2 of them will give me coffee they've roasted. Etc. The
> 10 espresso machines act as money.
>
> To see this happening today, consider options trading. You're buying the
> *rights* to some thing/action, virtualized things/actions. You might also
> see it in contract clauses like "right of first refusal". Any mediating
> reservoir of value might play the role played by money.
>
>
> On 5/10/21 7:35 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > I agree that those extra "dimensions," rules, norms, laws, etc. are very
> important. Do you believe they could all exist without a framework of money
> to refer to, e.g., for penalties (e.g., for when an agreement is not met),
> awards (e.g., as incentives for improved or more timely performance),
> contracts, arbitration decision, etc? I'm skeptical. It's widely agreed
> that one of the primary values of money is to facilitate trade between
> people/organizations that don't have specific items to exchange. E.g.,
> person A wants/needs something person B has "for sale" (whatever that means
> in a non-money environment), but person B doesn't want/need anything person
> A has "for sale," even though there are others who do want/need what person
> A is "selling." Money makes such exchanges possible. How do you see it
> happening without money?
> >
> > More generally, how will society allocate human effort and physical
> resources without money? (I'm surprised I hadn't thought of this earlier.
> It seems like the core question. I know I mentioned it last time. I
> surprised myself by finding it.) It doesn't seem feasible to me to have the
> kinds of agreements/contracts you mentioned at the individual level for
> each individual. It's still not clear to me how you see it all working.
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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