[FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

Sun Nov 28 22:50:06 EST 2021

I would say yes.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 8:49 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

>
> Can’t the delay be in arbitrarily-small discretized units (e.g.
> picoseconds) if needed?
>
> On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
> By the way an example of a cycle with no delay, unless time isn't
> continuous, is a pair of ladders leaning against each other so that neither
> falls.  That violates assumptions of our causal discovery algorithms.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:57 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> An element of a (very short) cycle.  Note that there has to be a delay.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:44 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In your lingo, what is an effect called that feeds back on its cause?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick Thompson
>>>
>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, for example.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:06 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess you mean A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2), not B(t=1)->A(t=0)
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:46 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I did a number of experiments in the use of causal learning methods to
>>> infer genetic regulatory networks using actual and simulated data.  Those
>>> networks have loops of a variety of lengths.  References available upon
>>> request.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I just don't see how that is a "loop" except that repeated application
>>> of such a matrix could lead to oscillation.    It sounded like somehow
>>> causality was violated and not just obscured.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of ? glen
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38 PM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>>
>>> Right, high dimension. More important than the matrix being large is
>>> that it has non-zero cross terms.
>>>
>>> On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <
>>> marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>> >The operators are large (in the sense of a matrix) whether or not they
>>> are intended to be?
>>> >
>>> >> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20 AM, ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Any of the evolutionary operators across scales, from energy
>>> exchange at the finest to ecosystem reengineering at the coarsest.
>>> >>
>>> >>> On November 27, 2021 7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <
>>> marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>> >>> I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have no idea what these
>>> loops are or what you might be talking about.
>>> >>>
>>> --
>>> glen ⛧
>>>
>>>
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