[FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Wed Oct 20 11:37:09 EDT 2021
Gelerntner's Mirror Worlds reminds me of the Gintautis/Hubler conception
of InterReality:
https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=Z0JinvkAAAAJ&citation_for_view=Z0JinvkAAAAJ:u-x6o8ySG0sC
I brought Vadas down from LANL where he was a PostDoc to give his spiel
on the topic at SfX back in the day, I don't know if anyone else
remembers him from that.
Hubler taught at the SFI Complex Systems School (I think) until his
death a few years ago. He is probably more well known for his "Arbitrons".
https://www.santafe.edu/news-center/news/memoriam-alfred-hubler
I can't tell that the interreality stuff ever got traction and I'm too
lazy/stupid to properly follow up on other work that might cite
theirs. Maybe in a parallel universe, one of the schmear of me is
doing that right now instead of bloviating here.
On 10/20/21 8:20 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> David Gelernter, noted computer scientist, creator of the Linda
> programming language, victim of the Unabomber, general A+++le, and,
> undoubtedly, a Trump supporter; once wrote an excellent book: /Mirror
> Worlds: or the Day Software puts the Universe in a Shoebox ... How it
> Will Happen and What It Will Mean. /
>
> A mirror world was, essentially, a set of 'feed-forward' "smart boards."
>
> A Smart Board is the apex type of blackboard: bulletin board,
> blackboard, smart board. Stigmergy of all kinds takes place in Smart
> Boards and the Smart Board itself is "aware" of what is going on
> inside itself and takes an active computational role.
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, at 7:02 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> By the way, Nick, blackboard systems like Hearsay had levels and
>> causation among levels.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 6:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Now /that/ sounds like s blackboard system.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:15 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. Stigmergy always reminds me of ants looking for food
>> using pheromone trails. The classic swarm intelligence
>> example described in the book of Eric Bonabeau, Guy Theraulaz
>> and Marco Dorigo. In this case stigmergy can be considered as
>> a phenomenon where agents collectively use the *environment
>> as a shared memory *(the pheromone is stored in the
>> environment and it contains the memory where to find the food
>> source). Good point! I guess Russ will like this point of view.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com>
>> Date: 10/20/21 07:16 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>>
>> But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused
>> or misused. There should be a decoupling of the objectives of
>> the writer from the objectives of the reader. A good example
>> is a hermit crab using a soup can as its shell. Or an urban
>> kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food.
>>
>> The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance
>> that needs some attention.
>>
>> On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>> >I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term.
>> In computer science it would be a “blackboard system” or
>> simply “memory”.
>> >
>> >From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of
>> Nicholas Thompson
>> >Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM
>> >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>> >
>> >Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is
>> stigmergy then the word has no interesting use.
>> >
>> > I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction.
>> The concept offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms
>> for an organism to direct its own evolution. It's like the
>> inheritance of acquired environments. I think of it as
>> including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting acorns
>> in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with
>> food for the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run,
>> future oak trees. In some sense, the environment that
>> selects the organism is an environment that is selected by
>> the organism.
>> >
>> >I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish
>> between things left behind that positively affect those that
>> follow. To my surprise, the word is apparently of recent
>> origin having been specifically invented to apply to ant
>> pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we might
>> narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and
>> leave niche construction to apply to objects that provide
>> shelter, nutrition or other benefits to the finder, eg.,
>> acorns, beaver dams,
>> >
>> >Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive
>> me out of my post travel lassitude.
>> >
>> >Nick
>> >
>> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly
>> <wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're
>> alive and maybe before and after? This is a possible
>> interpretation of Nick's comment that everything is stygmergy.
>> >---
>> >Frank C. Wimberly
>> >140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> >Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >
>> >505 670-9918
>> >Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>> >What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn
>> whether we categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or
>> “environment” or “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going
>> all the time in some subtle way we can’t discern because we
>> are looking at the pieces the wrong way.
>> >
>> >> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$
>> <gepropella at gmail.com<mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> To be clear though, this requires a flexible
>> understanding of "agent" or whatever's doing the indirect
>> coordinating "through" the environment. I.e. "stygmergy"
>> isn't very well defined.
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> >>> Game of Life has been shown to be universal
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life
>> <https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs
>> that behave this way, and so could implement any simulation
>> manifesting stigmergy.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Friam
>> <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>
>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM
>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting point. What do the others think?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider
>> the X as your agent and the space to the left and right as
>> the environment then yes, we would have a kind of stygmergy
>> model for an agent which interacts in a two dimensional world
>> (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather limited
>> model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -J.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -------- Original message --------
>> >>>
>> >>> From:
>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00)
>> >>>
>> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
>> <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks, Jochen, for answering.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring
>> you on board. In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need
>> not involve sociality. So, If I go out on a hike and cut
>> blazes on trees on my way out so I can find my way home, that
>> is stygmergy in good standing, right?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if
>> nothing is written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o,
>> write x beside.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> X
>> >>>
>> >>> OXO
>> >>>
>> >>> XOXOX
>> >>>
>> >>> ETC.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a
>> thing put out in the environment and the “rules” what the
>> organism brings to the table then each line is the joint
>> product of the previous line and the rule, hence stygmergy.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> N
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Nick Thompson
>> >>>
>> >>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Friam
>> <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>>
>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM
>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO.
>> Stygmergy is as Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect
>> coordination through the environment. For example: ants which
>> exploit a food source by following a pheromone trail. Or
>> termites which build a nest.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction
>> between agent and environment. They are just a grid of states
>> which evolves step by step by updating the cells with a
>> transition rule or function.
>> >>>
>> >>> The other type of collective intelligence besides
>> stygmergy is swarm formation. The individual member is
>> attracted to the group as a whole but repelled by other
>> individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which govern
>> fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but
>> keep away from your neighbors".
>> >>>
>> >>> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the
>> individuals are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy
>> books have typically only a few MB. If the individuals are
>> lifeless molecules, then the code can be several GB (a human
>> genome has roughly 3 GB).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart
>> grandson! I believe Frank has grandchildren too.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jochen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -------- Original message --------
>> >>>
>> >>> From:
>> thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00)
>> >>>
>> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
>> <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological]
>> development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Friends,
>> >>>
>> >>> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me.
>> >>>
>> >>> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his
>> freshman biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are
>> replete with cognitive language like “signal” and “memory”
>> etc., which implies that as the worm regenerates it is
>> influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My
>> basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in
>> human cognition, let alone worm regeneration and that
>> processes that produce a functional head from a slice of the
>> rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are doing even
>> when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of
>> structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which
>> the next bit . Which, of course, puts me in mind both of
>> stygmergy and of Cellular Automata. So to my questions:
>> >>>
>> >>> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy?
>> >>>
>> >>> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development?
>> >>>
>> >>> Why? Or Why not? Discuss.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep
>> learning curve, where my grandson and I could explore the
>> relation between developmental processes and ca’s. I looked
>> at NewLogo Library and did not find there any models of
>> regeneration, but may not have known where to look. I did
>> find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which deep
>> down in the Table of Contents seemed to have three
>> regeneration models including one named “Planaria”, but I
>> could no see how to go further with it. If somebody could
>> have a look at it and give me some tips for how to use it, I
>> would be ever so grateful.
>>
>> --
>> glen ⛧
>>
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .---
>> ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
>> un/subscribe
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .---
>> ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
>> un/subscribe
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --.
>> .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribehttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIChttp://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
> 5/2017 thru presenthttps://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20211020/d4d39446/attachment.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list