[FRIAM] health care logistics
Marcus Daniels
marcus at snoutfarm.com
Wed Jan 26 11:29:54 EST 2022
I used to trim everything, but I tend to get accusations that was trying to judo chop people and take them out of context. When really, I'm just trying to delete all distracting context. I think that larding is ridiculous. Reasonable people can soak up the meaning and respond without torturing things a word at a time. If that doesn't work, then there is probably bad faith.
________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:17 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
Yeah, that's a good point. And it's relevant to SteveS' comment on the metaphorical neutering of stereotypically identified "men". (That category also would include the "lean in" females, i.e. those who adopt man-ish behaviors to combat systemic sexism.) Metoo and cancel culture are taken as Black Mirror to most of the macho conservatives I meet at the pub. But to me it seems more like freedom. It's a negative liberty, which conservatives and libertarians don't understand well, even though they claim to base their ideology on it. Freedom from being forced to drive a 4 wheel drive vehicle because, well, the government builds roads with your damned taxes. Freedom from being mugged in the parking lot because the government pays police with your damned taxes. Freedom from having to filter my water because the government pays water treatment engineers to build plants and pipe potable water to your faucet with your damned taxes.
The metaphorical neutering in progress like metoo and cancel culture is the freedom from being pelted with shit tossed at you by bottom-feeding bullies. Now if we could only cancel American Football, I'd be happy. >8^D ... such an offensive game.
p.s. Y'all need to trim your posts. I just trimmed, literally, 20k of FriAM signature fodder from that post. Electricity doesn't grow on trees!
On 1/25/22 15:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> For me, meat-in-vats or Impossible burger tech. is more to address cruelty. To examine what we do and how -- with apologies to Glen -- it corrupts us. I think Ezra Klein put it well. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html>
>
> A friend remarked on how her perception of the importance of sex has changed as she got older. I really think a lot of our perceptions are driven in that way, and they don't MEAN anything. I think these sundry appetites are very likely tunable, perhaps with some preceding machine learning protocol to learn the right neurons to stimulate. To some that's Black Mirror. To me it seems more like freedom.
>
> Marcus
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 4:17 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> On 1/25/22 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> https://goodmeat.co/process <https://goodmeat.co/process>
>>
> 15 years ago, my daughter did her PhD research in HPV... a great deal of her time was spent "cloning human skin and giving it warts". She was (is) a died-in-the-wool vegetarian and humanitarian and she was a little squeamish about that aspect of her work, but couldn't put her finger on why exactly. She gifted me a copy of the biography of Henrietta Lacks which was fascinating. I don't know if her skin cells were HeLa, I see lots of progress in the field of inducing skin cells to develop into STEM cells (and even into embryos!) so I assume it was possible and perhaps preferred for the same reason HeLa is used in other fields.
>
>
> I myself have been mostly vegetarian most of my adulthood and while I still can be persuaded that meat-eating is something humans have evolved to be good at, I believe as omnivores, we are also very capable of living well on a vegetarian and even vegan diets. When I have deviated from vegetarianism, it has been the usual suspects starting with bacon and hamburgers but including chicken and steak. Most of my peers who avoid red-meat don't seem to understand that every chicken-life only yields a few 10-piece nugget McMeals or a couple of fajita plates. I started my vegetarianism as a boycott against industrial meat-production and the animal cruelty implicit in it, but now it is augmented/dominated by my assumptions about planet-scale sustainability of same.
>
>
> I think "growing meat in a vat" is no better (or worse) of a solution to our global problems than replacing 4000lb ICE vehicles with 5000lb EVs... while it might be "a good start" or part of a "transition strategy" it ignores the first-order misunderstanding of the carrying capacity of our biosphere (as discussed in earlier/alternate threads here). Sure, if the 1% ers are the only ones that drive (Electric) Hummers and eat 16oz Steaks (3D printed from vat grown muscle/bone/fat?) daily (even weekly) then these solutions are probably close to optimal for the moment (decade or two). But that is not the world I (want to) live in, and one would hope 99% would not want to either (though there is an aspirational logic to richy-rich wannabes who support/promote obscene wealth because they imagine they themselves are on an arc to that kind of imbalance).
>
>
> Regarding meat-chickens. When COVID hit, the first thing I did was run down to my local farm store and adopt 12 sex-linked chicks to raise for eggs. I avoided hatching my own from fertilized eggs mainly because I didn't want to take responsibility for the roughly 50% male chickens I would get. Sex-Linked chicks are easily sexed because their gross appearance is significantly different between genders. I understand that the bulk of the males "culled" to send only laying hens to the likes of me are pushed into the meat-production industry, though I know in some contexts DaveW's and EricS's images of culled/discarded male chicks (smokestacks like holocaust camps) are very real... Most other meat animals are "harvested" young, as they reach their full growth while remaining tender. Veal is an extreme version of this. Veal and Pate' seem like good candidates for vat-growing.
>
>
> My original point about neutering (male) pets and work animals was more about blunting testosterone-driven behaviour (i.e. aggression, dominance, and confinement resistance). The Libertarians here may want to point out that human males are being neutered culturally and circumstantially (and I don't entirely disagree, and I think the resulting dissonance is a huge problem for society).
>
>
> Grumble,
>
> - Steve
>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:25 AM
>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>
>>
>> On 1/25/22 8:48 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>> Boneless chicken breasts come from roosters?
>>
>> Top hit on my google... not sure if US is very different from AU:
>>
>> https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/ <https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/>
>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 8:45 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> We neuter many/most male pets and beasts of burden, slaughter many of them young (e.g. this is where most of our beef and chicken come from).
>>>
>>> We do this for various reasons that are not entirely unrelated to the larger conversation here...
>>>
>>> On 1/25/22 7:35 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>>> Never too late, Merle.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, they should have drowned the boys.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 7:27 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century <https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>>
>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 7:16 AM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave is right. Development experts have known for a long time that when girls get educated and women hold jobs outside the home they are much more likely to control childbearing. However, the culture must change everywhere, and it happens quite slowly with lots of pushback. Check out the new protest and direct action movement that's happening with young men demonstrating in the streets in S. Korea. ("A Vicious Anti-Feminist Backlash Stuns South Korea", Globe And Mail, 1/22.)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 12:40 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been known for a long time that the most effective means of birth / population control was educating girls, followed closely by empowering girls, e.g., with micro-loans to start businesses. I remember studying this topic way back in the 80s in my anthropology graduate program.
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> Merle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> < China's population has stopped growing--primarily because there are more urban educated workers, especially women. >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Estimate in Hawken's book was the 6th largest potential reduction for CO2 drawdown came from educating girls. His reference was:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1206964 <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fdoi%2f10.1126%2fscience.1206964&c=E,1,dhZqId6BmX_lZAkiZ4KqytELCYK4cwA4xLz977cmeLfMrTYrhP3BmklQPOLEU4fwWN1lRQM2UxbXsMWAXVEDer4Yykb7kz6tIFR9uWjkYw,,&typo=1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 9:40 PM
>>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>
>>>>>> China's population has stopped growing--primarily because there are more urban educated workers, especially women.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 7:11 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent, Marcus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric, if it's less than 90% it still would have be significant. Two problems, "God" has tricks for making babies. As for 1 child per couple didn't they "terminate" some babies (not fetuses, feti?), particularly females? My impression is that their population has grown substantially notwithstanding those policies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 6:38 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before I launch into a diatribe about why the hell we can't agree to basic, never mind interesting things: I'd just like to report that the James Webb telescope is in L2 orbit. Score one for the negotiating, patient, subtlety-appreciating scientists and their counterparts in government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 6:01 PM
>>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, as I read your characterization, Marcus, it took me back to Hannah Arendt’s description of feudal Europe and the role of the Rothschilds and other big Jewish quasi-stateless fixer families in relation to the feudal lords. Fussy and indirect seems somehow very close to the right picture of the stateless ones navigating always through the cracks and seams, compared to the blunt moves of the ones who had states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some discomfort that this doesn’t quite map. Yet it seems not fully dissimilar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 7:19 PM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SFI sponsorship seems like very much a fideistic declaration. It would be interesting to see how that influence network feeds into a D.C. influencer network and real money. There are some linkages, like Brookings, but leverage-wise it all seems much softer than with LANL and the DOE. And it all seems so fussy and indirect compared to slapping down a few billion dollars to build a Starship. That's the appeal of Musk: I'm f'ing doing this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 5:08 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that ain't true, either. Like Epstein, when you "invest" in the SFI or people like Steven Pinker or Bill Clinton, you're simply transferring from one store to another ... buying influence. If, e.g., the CIA contracts with the SFI to adapt a CAS modeling tool into a broad spectrum simulation tool, they are not only buying a (questionable) piece of software; they're buying *leverage* over people's salaries, loyalty, etc. So those VCs *will* see that money again, perhaps much less of it, depending on the efficiency of the transaction, or in fringe storage types (able to get past the receptionist after eating over-priced peri-Mexican food in order to have tea with smart people).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/24/22 15:31, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> > Some of them sponsor SFI for goodness' sake! They'll never see THAT money again!
--
glen
Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
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