[FRIAM] health care logistics
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 26 11:46:45 EST 2022
Thank God for not trimming. I was able to catch up on this . um .. Far
flung conversation in one go without opening a thousand messages. Thank You
Marcus.
I have only one comment: Frank, I think it's feteri. Ask you daughter to
make sure.
Nick
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:30 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
I used to trim everything, but I tend to get accusations that was trying to
judo chop people and take them out of context. When really, I'm just trying
to delete all distracting context. I think that larding is ridiculous.
Reasonable people can soak up the meaning and respond without torturing
things a word at a time. If that doesn't work, then there is probably bad
faith.
_____
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> >
on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:17 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
Yeah, that's a good point. And it's relevant to SteveS' comment on the
metaphorical neutering of stereotypically identified "men". (That category
also would include the "lean in" females, i.e. those who adopt man-ish
behaviors to combat systemic sexism.) Metoo and cancel culture are taken as
Black Mirror to most of the macho conservatives I meet at the pub. But to me
it seems more like freedom. It's a negative liberty, which conservatives and
libertarians don't understand well, even though they claim to base their
ideology on it. Freedom from being forced to drive a 4 wheel drive vehicle
because, well, the government builds roads with your damned taxes. Freedom
from being mugged in the parking lot because the government pays police with
your damned taxes. Freedom from having to filter my water because the
government pays water treatment engineers to build plants and pipe potable
water to your faucet with your damned taxes.
The metaphorical neutering in progress like metoo and cancel culture is the
freedom from being pelted with shit tossed at you by bottom-feeding bullies.
Now if we could only cancel American Football, I'd be happy. >8^D ... such
an offensive game.
p.s. Y'all need to trim your posts. I just trimmed, literally, 20k of FriAM
signature fodder from that post. Electricity doesn't grow on trees!
On 1/25/22 15:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> For me, meat-in-vats or Impossible burger tech. is more to address
cruelty. To examine what we do and how -- with apologies to Glen -- it
corrupts us. I think Ezra Klein put it well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html
<https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html>
>
> A friend remarked on how her perception of the importance of sex has
changed as she got older. I really think a lot of our perceptions are
driven in that way, and they don't MEAN anything. I think these sundry
appetites are very likely tunable, perhaps with some preceding machine
learning protocol to learn the right neurons to stimulate. To some that's
Black Mirror. To me it seems more like freedom.
>
> Marcus
>
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> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > on behalf of Steve Smith
<sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> >
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 4:17 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> On 1/25/22 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> https://goodmeat.co/process <https://goodmeat.co/process>
>>
> 15 years ago, my daughter did her PhD research in HPV... a great deal of
her time was spent "cloning human skin and giving it warts". She was (is)
a died-in-the-wool vegetarian and humanitarian and she was a little
squeamish about that aspect of her work, but couldn't put her finger on why
exactly. She gifted me a copy of the biography of Henrietta Lacks which was
fascinating. I don't know if her skin cells were HeLa, I see lots of
progress in the field of inducing skin cells to develop into STEM cells (and
even into embryos!) so I assume it was possible and perhaps preferred for
the same reason HeLa is used in other fields.
>
>
> I myself have been mostly vegetarian most of my adulthood and while I
still can be persuaded that meat-eating is something humans have evolved to
be good at, I believe as omnivores, we are also very capable of living well
on a vegetarian and even vegan diets. When I have deviated from
vegetarianism, it has been the usual suspects starting with bacon and
hamburgers but including chicken and steak. Most of my peers who avoid
red-meat don't seem to understand that every chicken-life only yields a few
10-piece nugget McMeals or a couple of fajita plates. I started my
vegetarianism as a boycott against industrial meat-production and the animal
cruelty implicit in it, but now it is augmented/dominated by my assumptions
about planet-scale sustainability of same.
>
>
> I think "growing meat in a vat" is no better (or worse) of a solution to
our global problems than replacing 4000lb ICE vehicles with 5000lb EVs...
while it might be "a good start" or part of a "transition strategy" it
ignores the first-order misunderstanding of the carrying capacity of our
biosphere (as discussed in earlier/alternate threads here). Sure, if the
1% ers are the only ones that drive (Electric) Hummers and eat 16oz Steaks
(3D printed from vat grown muscle/bone/fat?) daily (even weekly) then these
solutions are probably close to optimal for the moment (decade or two). But
that is not the world I (want to) live in, and one would hope 99% would not
want to either (though there is an aspirational logic to richy-rich wannabes
who support/promote obscene wealth because they imagine they themselves are
on an arc to that kind of imbalance).
>
>
> Regarding meat-chickens. When COVID hit, the first thing I did was run
down to my local farm store and adopt 12 sex-linked chicks to raise for
eggs. I avoided hatching my own from fertilized eggs mainly because I
didn't want to take responsibility for the roughly 50% male chickens I would
get. Sex-Linked chicks are easily sexed because their gross appearance is
significantly different between genders. I understand that the bulk of the
males "culled" to send only laying hens to the likes of me are pushed into
the meat-production industry, though I know in some contexts DaveW's and
EricS's images of culled/discarded male chicks (smokestacks like holocaust
camps) are very real... Most other meat animals are "harvested" young, as
they reach their full growth while remaining tender. Veal is an extreme
version of this. Veal and Pate' seem like good candidates for vat-growing.
>
>
> My original point about neutering (male) pets and work animals was more
about blunting testosterone-driven behaviour (i.e. aggression, dominance,
and confinement resistance). The Libertarians here may want to point out
that human males are being neutered culturally and circumstantially (and I
don't entirely disagree, and I think the resulting dissonance is a huge
problem for society).
>
>
> Grumble,
>
> - Steve
>
>>
>>
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>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> on
behalf of Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> >
<mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:25 AM
>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>
>>
>> On 1/25/22 8:48 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>> Boneless chicken breasts come from roosters?
>>
>> Top hit on my google... not sure if US is very different from AU:
>>
>> https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/
<https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/>
>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 8:45 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com
<mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> We neuter many/most male pets and beasts of burden, slaughter many
of them young (e.g. this is where most of our beef and chicken come from).
>>>
>>> We do this for various reasons that are not entirely unrelated to
the larger conversation here...
>>>
>>> On 1/25/22 7:35 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>>> Never too late, Merle.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com
<mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, they should have drowned the boys.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 7:27 AM Frank Wimberly
<wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But
>>>>>
>>>>>
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>>
>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 7:16 AM Merle Lefkoff
<merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave is right. Development experts have known for a long
time that when girls get educated and women hold jobs outside the home they
are much more likely to control childbearing. However, the culture must
change everywhere, and it happens quite slowly with lots of pushback. Check
out the new protest and direct action movement that's happening with young
men demonstrating in the streets in S. Korea. ("A Vicious Anti-Feminist
Backlash Stuns South Korea", Globe And Mail, 1/22.)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 12:40 AM Prof David West
<profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been known for a long time that the most
effective means of birth / population control was educating girls, followed
closely by empowering girls, e.g., with micro-loans to start businesses. I
remember studying this topic way back in the 80s in my anthropology graduate
program.
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:
>>>>>> Merle wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> < China's population has stopped growing--primarily
because there are more urban educated workers, especially women. >
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Estimate in Hawken's book was the 6th largest
potential reduction for CO2 drawdown came from educating girls. His
reference was:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1206964
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fdoi%2
f10.1126%2fscience.1206964
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fdoi%2
f10.1126%2fscience.1206964&c=E,1,dhZqId6BmX_lZAkiZ4KqytELCYK4cwA4xLz977cmeLf
MrTYrhP3BmklQPOLEU4fwWN1lRQM2UxbXsMWAXVEDer4Yykb7kz6tIFR9uWjkYw,,&typo=1>
&c=E,1,dhZqId6BmX_lZAkiZ4KqytELCYK4cwA4xLz977cmeLfMrTYrhP3BmklQPOLEU4fwWN1lR
QM2UxbXsMWAXVEDer4Yykb7kz6tIFR9uWjkYw,,&typo=1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff
<merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 9:40 PM
>>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>
>>>>>> China's population has stopped growing--primarily
because there are more urban educated workers, especially women.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 7:11 PM Frank Wimberly
<wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excellent, Marcus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric, if it's less than 90% it still would have
be significant. Two problems, "God" has tricks for making babies. As for 1
child per couple didn't they "terminate" some babies (not fetuses, feti?),
particularly females? My impression is that their population has grown
substantially notwithstanding those policies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 6:38 PM Marcus Daniels
<marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before I launch into a diatribe about why the
hell we can't agree to basic, never mind interesting things: I'd just like
to report that the James Webb telescope is in L2 orbit. Score one for the
negotiating, patient, subtlety-appreciating scientists and their
counterparts in government.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of David Eric Smith
<desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 6:01 PM
>>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You know, as I read your characterization,
Marcus, it took me back to Hannah Arendt's description of feudal Europe and
the role of the Rothschilds and other big Jewish quasi-stateless fixer
families in relation to the feudal lords. Fussy and indirect seems somehow
very close to the right picture of the stateless ones navigating always
through the cracks and seams, compared to the blunt moves of the ones who
had states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some discomfort that this doesn't
quite map. Yet it seems not fully dissimilar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 7:19 PM, Marcus Daniels
<marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SFI sponsorship seems like very much a
fideistic declaration. It would be interesting to see how that influence
network feeds into a D.C. influencer network and real money. There are
some linkages, like Brookings, but leverage-wise it all seems much softer
than with LANL and the DOE. And it all seems so fussy and indirect
compared to slapping down a few billion dollars to build a Starship. That's
the appeal of Musk: I'm f'ing doing this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of glen <gepropella at gmail.com
<mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 5:08 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com
<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, that ain't true, either. Like Epstein,
when you "invest" in the SFI or people like Steven Pinker or Bill Clinton,
you're simply transferring from one store to another ... buying influence.
If, e.g., the CIA contracts with the SFI to adapt a CAS modeling tool into a
broad spectrum simulation tool, they are not only buying a (questionable)
piece of software; they're buying *leverage* over people's salaries,
loyalty, etc. So those VCs *will* see that money again, perhaps much less of
it, depending on the efficiency of the transaction, or in fringe storage
types (able to get past the receptionist after eating over-priced
peri-Mexican food in order to have tea with smart people).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/24/22 15:31, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> > Some of them sponsor SFI for goodness'
sake! They'll never see THAT money again!
--
glen
Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
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