[FRIAM] health care logistics
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Wed Jan 26 21:36:46 EST 2022
Nick,
My daughter says,
"It is a fourth declension noun like apparatus. The plural is the same as
the singular, I believe."
Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 9:47 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank God for not trimming. I was able to catch up on this … um …. Far
> flung conversation in one go without opening a thousand messages. Thank
> You Marcus.
>
>
>
> I have only one comment: Frank, I think it’s *feteri. *Ask you
> daughter to make sure.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:30 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>
>
>
> I used to trim everything, but I tend to get accusations that was trying
> to judo chop people and take them out of context. When really, I'm just
> trying to delete all distracting context. I think that larding is
> ridiculous. Reasonable people can soak up the meaning and respond without
> torturing things a word at a time. If that doesn't work, then there is
> probably bad faith.
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <
> gepropella at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:17 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's a good point. And it's relevant to SteveS' comment on the
> metaphorical neutering of stereotypically identified "men". (That category
> also would include the "lean in" females, i.e. those who adopt man-ish
> behaviors to combat systemic sexism.) Metoo and cancel culture are taken as
> Black Mirror to most of the macho conservatives I meet at the pub. But to
> me it seems more like freedom. It's a negative liberty, which conservatives
> and libertarians don't understand well, even though they claim to base
> their ideology on it. Freedom from being forced to drive a 4 wheel drive
> vehicle because, well, the government builds roads with your damned taxes.
> Freedom from being mugged in the parking lot because the government pays
> police with your damned taxes. Freedom from having to filter my water
> because the government pays water treatment engineers to build plants and
> pipe potable water to your faucet with your damned taxes.
>
> The metaphorical neutering in progress like metoo and cancel culture is
> the freedom from being pelted with shit tossed at you by bottom-feeding
> bullies. Now if we could only cancel American Football, I'd be happy. >8^D
> ... such an offensive game.
>
> p.s. Y'all need to trim your posts. I just trimmed, literally, 20k of
> FriAM signature fodder from that post. Electricity doesn't grow on trees!
>
> On 1/25/22 15:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > For me, meat-in-vats or Impossible burger tech. is more to address
> cruelty. To examine what we do and how -- with apologies to Glen -- it
> corrupts us. I think Ezra Klein put it well.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html>
> >
> > A friend remarked on how her perception of the importance of sex has
> changed as she got older. I really think a lot of our perceptions are
> driven in that way, and they don't MEAN anything. I think these sundry
> appetites are very likely tunable, perhaps with some preceding machine
> learning protocol to learn the right neurons to stimulate. To some that's
> Black Mirror. To me it seems more like freedom.
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Steve Smith <
> sasmyth at swcp.com>
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 4:17 PM
> > *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> > On 1/25/22 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> https://goodmeat.co/process <https://goodmeat.co/process>
> >>
> > 15 years ago, my daughter did her PhD research in HPV... a great deal
> of her time was spent "cloning human skin and giving it warts". She was
> (is) a died-in-the-wool vegetarian and humanitarian and she was a little
> squeamish about that aspect of her work, but couldn't put her finger on why
> exactly. She gifted me a copy of the biography of Henrietta Lacks which
> was fascinating. I don't know if her skin cells were HeLa, I see lots of
> progress in the field of inducing skin cells to develop into STEM cells
> (and even into embryos!) so I assume it was possible and perhaps preferred
> for the same reason HeLa is used in other fields.
> >
> >
> > I myself have been mostly vegetarian most of my adulthood and while I
> still can be persuaded that meat-eating is something humans have evolved to
> be good at, I believe as omnivores, we are also very capable of living well
> on a vegetarian and even vegan diets. When I have deviated from
> vegetarianism, it has been the usual suspects starting with bacon and
> hamburgers but including chicken and steak. Most of my peers who avoid
> red-meat don't seem to understand that every chicken-life only yields a few
> 10-piece nugget McMeals or a couple of fajita plates. I started my
> vegetarianism as a boycott against industrial meat-production and the
> animal cruelty implicit in it, but now it is augmented/dominated by my
> assumptions about planet-scale sustainability of same.
> >
> >
> > I think "growing meat in a vat" is no better (or worse) of a solution to
> our global problems than replacing 4000lb ICE vehicles with 5000lb EVs...
> while it might be "a good start" or part of a "transition strategy" it
> ignores the first-order misunderstanding of the carrying capacity of our
> biosphere (as discussed in earlier/alternate threads here). Sure, if the
> 1% ers are the only ones that drive (Electric) Hummers and eat 16oz Steaks
> (3D printed from vat grown muscle/bone/fat?) daily (even weekly) then these
> solutions are probably close to optimal for the moment (decade or two).
> But that is not the world I (want to) live in, and one would hope 99% would
> not want to either (though there is an aspirational logic to richy-rich
> wannabes who support/promote obscene wealth because they imagine they
> themselves are on an arc to that kind of imbalance).
> >
> >
> > Regarding meat-chickens. When COVID hit, the first thing I did was run
> down to my local farm store and adopt 12 sex-linked chicks to raise for
> eggs. I avoided hatching my own from fertilized eggs mainly because I
> didn't want to take responsibility for the roughly 50% male chickens I
> would get. Sex-Linked chicks are easily sexed because their gross
> appearance is significantly different between genders. I understand that
> the bulk of the males "culled" to send only laying hens to the likes of me
> are pushed into the meat-production industry, though I know in some
> contexts DaveW's and EricS's images of culled/discarded male chicks
> (smokestacks like holocaust camps) are very real... Most other meat
> animals are "harvested" young, as they reach their full growth while
> remaining tender. Veal is an extreme version of this. Veal and Pate'
> seem like good candidates for vat-growing.
> >
> >
> > My original point about neutering (male) pets and work animals was more
> about blunting testosterone-driven behaviour (i.e. aggression, dominance,
> and confinement resistance). The Libertarians here may want to point out
> that human males are being neutered culturally and circumstantially (and I
> don't entirely disagree, and I think the resulting dissonance is a huge
> problem for society).
> >
> >
> > Grumble,
> >
> > - Steve
> >
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <
> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf
> of Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com
> <sasmyth at swcp.com>>
> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 11:25 AM
> >> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>>
> <friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> >>
> >>
> >> On 1/25/22 8:48 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> >>> Boneless chicken breasts come from roosters?
> >>
> >> Top hit on my google... not sure if US is very different from AU:
> >>
> >> https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/ <
> https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/>
> >>
> >>> ---
> >>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>>
> >>> 505 670-9918
> >>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 8:45 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com <
> mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com <sasmyth at swcp.com>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We neuter many/most male pets and beasts of burden, slaughter many
> of them young (e.g. this is where most of our beef and chicken come from).
> >>>
> >>> We do this for various reasons that are not entirely unrelated to
> the larger conversation here...
> >>>
> >>> On 1/25/22 7:35 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> >>>> Never too late, Merle.
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Merle Lefkoff <
> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com
> <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, they should have drowned the boys.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 7:27 AM Frank Wimberly <
> wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com <wimberly3 at gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century <
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ---
> >>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 505 670-9918
> >>>>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 7:16 AM Merle Lefkoff <
> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com
> <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave is right. Development experts have known for a
> long time that when girls get educated and women hold jobs outside the home
> they are much more likely to control childbearing. However, the culture
> must change everywhere, and it happens quite slowly with lots of pushback.
> Check out the new protest and direct action movement that's happening with
> young men demonstrating in the streets in S. Korea. ("A Vicious
> Anti-Feminist Backlash Stuns South Korea", Globe And Mail, 1/22.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 12:40 AM Prof David West <
> profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm <profwest at fastmail.fm>>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It has been known for a long time that the most
> effective means of birth / population control was educating girls, followed
> closely by empowering girls, e.g., with micro-loans to start businesses. I
> remember studying this topic way back in the 80s in my anthropology
> graduate program.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> davew
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Marcus Daniels
> wrote:
> >>>>>> Merle wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> < China's population has stopped growing--primarily
> because there are more urban educated workers, especially women. >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Estimate in Hawken's book was the 6th largest
> potential reduction for CO2 drawdown came from educating girls. His
> reference was:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1206964
> <
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fdoi%2f10.1126%2fscience.1206964&c=E,1,dhZqId6BmX_lZAkiZ4KqytELCYK4cwA4xLz977cmeLfMrTYrhP3BmklQPOLEU4fwWN1lRQM2UxbXsMWAXVEDer4Yykb7kz6tIFR9uWjkYw,,&typo=1
> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <
> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> on behalf
> of Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com <mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com
> <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>>>
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 9:40 PM
> >>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>>>
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> China's population has stopped growing--primarily
> because there are more urban educated workers, especially women.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 7:11 PM Frank Wimberly <
> wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com <wimberly3 at gmail.com>>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Excellent, Marcus.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Eric, if it's less than 90% it still would have
> be significant. Two problems, "God" has tricks for making babies. As for
> 1 child per couple didn't they "terminate" some babies (not fetuses,
> feti?), particularly females? My impression is that their population has
> grown substantially notwithstanding those policies.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 505 670-9918
> >>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 6:38 PM Marcus Daniels <
> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com <marcus at snoutfarm.com>>>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Before I launch into a diatribe about why
> the hell we can't agree to basic, never mind interesting things: I'd just
> like to report that the James Webb telescope is in L2 orbit. Score one for
> the negotiating, patient, subtlety-appreciating scientists and their
> counterparts in government.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Marcus
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <
> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> on behalf
> of David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu
> <desmith at santafe.edu>>>
> >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 6:01 PM
> >>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com
> <friam at redfish.com>>>
> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You know, as I read your characterization,
> Marcus, it took me back to Hannah Arendt’s description of feudal Europe and
> the role of the Rothschilds and other big Jewish quasi-stateless fixer
> families in relation to the feudal lords. Fussy and indirect seems somehow
> very close to the right picture of the stateless ones navigating always
> through the cracks and seams, compared to the blunt moves of the ones who
> had states.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have some discomfort that this doesn’t
> quite map. Yet it seems not fully dissimilar.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Eric
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 7:19 PM, Marcus
> Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com
> <marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> SFI sponsorship seems like very much a
> fideistic declaration. It would be interesting to see how that influence
> network feeds into a D.C. influencer network and real money. There are
> some linkages, like Brookings, but leverage-wise it all seems much softer
> than with LANL and the DOE. And it all seems so fussy and indirect
> compared to slapping down a few billion dollars to build a Starship.
> That's the appeal of Musk: I'm f'ing doing this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <
> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> on behalf
> of glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com
> <gepropella at gmail.com>>>
> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 5:08 PM
> >>>>>>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <
> mailto:friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>> <friam at redfish.com <
> mailto:friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>>>
> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care
> logistics
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, that ain't true, either. Like
> Epstein, when you "invest" in the SFI or people like Steven Pinker or Bill
> Clinton, you're simply transferring from one store to another ... buying
> influence. If, e.g., the CIA contracts with the SFI to adapt a CAS modeling
> tool into a broad spectrum simulation tool, they are not only buying a
> (questionable) piece of software; they're buying *leverage* over people's
> salaries, loyalty, etc. So those VCs *will* see that money again, perhaps
> much less of it, depending on the efficiency of the transaction, or in
> fringe storage types (able to get past the receptionist after eating
> over-priced peri-Mexican food in order to have tea with smart people).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 1/24/22 15:31, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>>> > Some of them sponsor SFI for goodness'
> sake! They'll never see THAT money again!
>
> --
> glen
> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
>
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