[FRIAM] center of the milkyway does containt a blackhole

Sat May 14 12:15:29 EDT 2022

thanks again for the ELI5 explanations!

Something that bothers me.
Given things around nature tend to have complementary pairs: two right
triangles can be ligned up to make a square, the gold ratio makes for
gorgeous baroque style art etc etc
We have super light things and super dense things:
so where the hell are objects like white dwarfs, or more exotic and surreal
where linear time order doesn't exist. When have something super dense that
pulls all kinds of stuff twards it. And it'd also seem like we'd have a few
4 and 5d objects running around, like some cool acid trip. What I mean are
such warped and strange areas of space, quite possible only forming under
ver specific conditions where:
-Given the standard model isn't going anyplace
-And quantum physics isn't either
if we didn't have structured dimensions for some amount of time while the
universe cooled: shouldn't their also be at least a few objects that didn't
cool in away we've encountered so far: possible stars made of nothing but
tachyons somehow (for instance) might be as many relative to mainline types
(like the sun).

lol or do I need coffee and put down science articles about weird things I
hardly grasp?

On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 3:57 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
wrote:

> 😍😀😁
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:45 AM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gil,
>>
>> Yes, several good questions, some with answers, some not known.
>>
>> Ok now that I got that out my system:
>> I had wondered if this is the same science stunt we used to image a
>> blackhole...but what are they using as a light source
>>
>>
>> The light is actually being generated by gas or dust that spirals very
>> fast around the black hole itself.  Things that swirl around a central
>> object don’t move cleanly.  There is a lot of turbulence and collision, and
>> they heat up.  Because the infall around BHs is so fast, they get very hot
>> and glow.
>>
>> As for what frequencies they use to observe, I think it is an
>> intersection of three considerations: 1) it has to be a wavelength long
>> enough that the telescopes can get phase coherence, which I think means
>> somewhere in the radio (microwave might be possible in principle, but quite
>> difficult); 2) it has to be a wavelength that somewhat gets through all the
>> dust between the center of the galaxy and us (I think this is the main
>> limitation); and 3) it has to be some frequency that the BH actually
>> emits.  Small ones like BHs from single stars might emit in X-rays, but I
>> think the large ones in galaxy centers are mostly radio sources, unless
>> they produce jets that create a secondary source of light.  (Check me on
>> this; I could be way off.)
>>
>> and how do decide on the galaxy's center
>>
>>
>> I think people now believe that most galaxy centers have these large BHs
>> in them.  It’s remarkable that 50 years ago, that had not been suspected.
>> When I was a kid, I read an old Asimov book “Quasar, quasar, burning
>> bright”, in which none of this was even a main theory.
>>
>> was this also created by the sheer weight of the galaxy?
>>
>>
>> This is the thing nobody knows.  They are so large, and the seem to have
>> formed so early, that it doesn’t seem possible for star-sized BHs to form
>> and then to merge.  BHs tend to clean out the dust from the environments
>> where they are for a long time, and without extra frictions, things just
>> orbit for a long time, but don’t collide.  I don’t know the details on how
>> people think about this in the best version.
>>
>> or did a star go kaboom their good knows when and it just happened to be
>> more or less dead center of the galaxy?
>>
>>
>> It seems people believe that the gathering that forms the galaxy is
>> somehow related to the formation of dense things, and eventually BHs, at
>> the center.  But I don’t know.
>>
>> and are they all shaped like a toilet?
>>
>>
>> They are actually among the roundest things in the universe.  The ring, I
>> think, is a very special kind of orbital effects.
>>
>> I taught with a physics prof. In Austin who used to explain mechanics to
>> students in a way I liked.  He said “The moon is falling toward the earth,
>> just like an apple would.  It’s just that the moon is moving sideways, so
>> it keeps missing”. And that’s all orbits are.  They’re falling inward, but
>> they keep missing.
>>
>> Where spacetime starts to tip very strongly near the event horizon, you
>> can do that with light.  There is a certain radius where light, traveling
>> sideways, just goes in an orbit.  A bit further in, light shining directly
>> outward never gets further out (that is the event horizon).  So I think the
>> ring effect isn’t so much that the glowing gas makes any kind of a ring,
>> but because there the light gets condensed into orbits, and when we look at
>> it, it is the light just outside that orbital radius that eventually beams
>> at us.  The orbits can be going all around the BH, covering the sphere in
>> any direction, but where we look at the central region of the disk, it is
>> shining “sideways”, and doesn’t eventually beam out to us in a way that
>> looks like it came from there.
>>
>> There are images of GR models, some of which got used in that Matthew
>> McConaughey movie, to suggest what it would look like if you were close by,
>> and didn’t have the combination of lensing distortions, dust, and telescope
>> resolution limitations.  I think it gives that ring look from any
>> direction, so this doesn’t have anything to do with rotating disks.  In any
>> case, if there were a disk, we wouldn’t see it face-on, because it would be
>> in the same plane of the galaxy as we are.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 8:08 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, good stuff.
>>>
>>> I’m not sure when I first heard about the ALMA upgrade that would give
>>> them phase coherence across the telescopes at the frequencies the EHT is
>>> using, and data archiving that would allow them to try to coherently
>>> register telescopes sited all around the world.  It feels like about a
>>> decade ago.  I have been waiting, since that first notice, to see this
>>> picture.  The M87 image a couple years ago was the resolution of the real
>>> cliffhanger — whether they could get it to work at all — but this one was
>>> even 2+ years harder to push through technically.
>>>
>>> I don’t imagine I would want to do that work.  It seems like an
>>> incredible tedious grind, made for real professionals.  But I am very glad
>>> to be a consumer of the outcome.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 13, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/science/black-hole-photo.html
>>>
>>> and it looks a bit like something melting on icecream. fudge or caramel
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2f%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,g4nNB9lId8M23hD2WsamUUHKMiSCjJePmyzMOQcT1owkCEiv33l21SxdXAuWv6NnKPbMuEQEkoMHTtKZmQdubAMCmkFwpBKkaeVptVwgtnIO7FUMXA,,&typo=1
>>> un/subscribe
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,tB-5WFDpRpXnEpC__CblcLZYsVkkK_KcQSrz2RFubdvXeUO3mNsX66x1bRINNwyULXBWnuuxT30OrrBQUoWE9bBzCt0yhzfyOkXthh4iKRjM0GTea0mZFpL6Bg,,&typo=1
>>> FRIAM-COMIC
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,E9TNNRcyezY-Riuyjhrs0n5KeGguwDXKiSiiMtspnqfNgCgmlFYyf-UHQLcz4Va7UXpP6-TXvUHvgndjZl6bmNjjadexHY7xJyplJe0sVazKrMBEA2qDug,,&typo=1
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,2RdcgQPrfWS0dIFzI4AgZcrhu4Z1MTuSaXb_lBaw2mkjtx6IPReajVomwTdtitLSRSNRyllE9Q_1mBoPjNDfKL6dqdT93iJXEX02vjDYG6xOKFHur8IX&typo=1
>>>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> un/subscribe
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriamun%2fsubscribe&c=E,1,Sx3h8uJK34nQWYXVzGsGDxnk0rHQ8vs3rTIXtmjzGTQMWAi7q-PtLzN9gtf6XdpDY3eWfy7Ny2tyK73b9tHFgG_oG0_-4rLIxuMhK8NOKM2txixXZbjWXWW4&typo=1>
>>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,yODfz8ytxLHPLBSlgEnq3--9ZKYJtkmzd1PvZIsBdn_LN6HqcbXDNYHMEfy2r-3_aahs6n6Y649laf79Sx7P9KvRhz9zWxGwqeqiAF5-aVXuLA,,&typo=1>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,btLMPsMn6rNtuGbWV3mgDPiRQBjaWp4ylDJmEyfFPw0OI5wpMSHNixvSJAX3yeNgg96XXZORNLhZqOFw5ySogDO2ArNxrXmOidKwwFiXn0oi&typo=1>
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,oEL4y-gfeageAoLW48CqJK9RSG3Q-2yZ-F72RCUKtLNYK5hq5feP9XhmQ1fT0nV2gHGj0LzaFBNoSDiAJhRq0mdBPcuHAbjLFHJKHUvBRBk4EVxsi4RDLlc,&typo=1>
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2f%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,-craH6Ofllo6j_c7CFw4Jl4DZKO9ZMnfRDGag8UJEneyEspbe4pdqVcP1mYTXfUZl7yfXsBNwD0T5pSA5XxnU-vuR0Tk1iCuDQo1QCMewEGYNwhEDQ,,&typo=1
>> un/subscribe
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,srn6mFvgclpO3Xlj9XX0x95b2sr8rUKUxz9xbLHGkagWmIZdZKdqRjTbXJ75hZByvGmoLcUxh_ihEMTQN0UGSEz4EswSZtMQg5p8rb7LmN-0lA,,&typo=1
>> FRIAM-COMIC
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,YP5RESa6jnatzUfnA1Mrjhajyqku4wCQhv68y-n6BGD05sKbhyq8-COKqr4LToHQLEdt6_sL8mAetmPYBKHDlUbIg1u31B3UFw1nFT4uaZ5w_5c5iFgukmqO1A,,&typo=1
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,juyiU48N0DT61UEuODpbAQIYCA30iBr_EoaJP3J-0BDmXATfNPRAdMYBc99rCkMo5KKZ5yD8rAI8ZxJV1Xf7EYVUdadv5gr6EdFaIKj1WVQKDfHu5ek,&typo=1
>>  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe>
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20220514/f9b11fa9/attachment.html>