[FRIAM] center of the milkyway does containt a blackhole
David Eric Smith
desmith at santafe.edu
Mon May 23 18:02:44 EDT 2022
Gil, hi,
Want to acknowledge, but too many and too hard questions for me to pick up.
However, it is worth saying that a few things are fairly simple, and where they are, it makes the universe more manageable to notice it.
1. We have a “hierarchy of matter”. Meaning that we have an ordering of phases that we understand well.
A — plasmas. The electrons are free of the atoms, and it is all a big electrically-conductive and magnetically convective more-than-gas. Flames include plasma.
B — gases. The electrons are now bound tightly to the atoms, but the atoms aren’t bound to each other, so they are still loose and floaty.
C — nuclear matter: This is present inside the atoms, and relative to the nuclei, the atoms are mostly “empty space”, even though the electrons are as tight as they can get. We can break nuclei, and in the early universe (much earlier than the plasma-phase), there was a kind of uber-plasma of components of nuclei, but that won’t be part of my list here.
2. When we look at stars, they actually have the same hierarchy. So the follow the structure of matter.
A — ordinary stars are a combination of plasma and gas. The plasma is all the glowing stuff, and the fact that they have color and spectral lines comes from the fact that some part of the atmosphere is condensed as far as a gas phase.
B — white dwarfs are like “star-atoms”: all the gas-floatiness is compressed out of them, and they are as tight as atoms in the way the electrons are bound around the nuclei; only star-sized. Probably with some aspects like metals, in that the electrons can be shared somewhat among atoms.
C — neutron stars are like “star-nuclei”: they are dense enough that all the electrons have combined with protons to make neutrons. So the “empty-space” part of atoms has been crushed away.
3. The interesting thing is that we don’t have any more levels of stable matter denser than the nuclei. So if a star gets denser than that, it doesn’t stop any more, and we go all the way to the black hole. So it’s not mysterious that we can build three kinds of machines on Earth (fires, gas engines, particle accelerators), and that we have three kinds of stars (ordinary, white dwarf, neutron star); it is the same thing seen in two places.
About higher dimensions, time, etc. Hard to find people who talk about this in a no-BS way that one can also understand. Lisa Randall wrote a book called “Warped Passages”; she may be somebody who has also given lectures that you can find on the web. I read the book a long time ago, and given the subject, it’s okay. Lisa is smart, and pretty straightforward. I haven’t looked for YouTube lectures.
All best,
Eric
> On May 15, 2022, at 1:15 AM, Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> thanks again for the ELI5 explanations!
>
> Something that bothers me.
> Given things around nature tend to have complementary pairs: two right triangles can be ligned up to make a square, the gold ratio makes for gorgeous baroque style art etc etc
> We have super light things and super dense things:
> so where the hell are objects like white dwarfs, or more exotic and surreal where linear time order doesn't exist. When have something super dense that pulls all kinds of stuff twards it. And it'd also seem like we'd have a few 4 and 5d objects running around, like some cool acid trip. What I mean are such warped and strange areas of space, quite possible only forming under ver specific conditions where:
> -Given the standard model isn't going anyplace
> -And quantum physics isn't either
> if we didn't have structured dimensions for some amount of time while the universe cooled: shouldn't their also be at least a few objects that didn't cool in away we've encountered so far: possible stars made of nothing but tachyons somehow (for instance) might be as many relative to mainline types (like the sun).
>
> lol or do I need coffee and put down science articles about weird things I hardly grasp?
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 3:57 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com <mailto:gil.densmore at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 😍😀😁
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:45 AM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
> Hi Gil,
>
> Yes, several good questions, some with answers, some not known.
>
>> Ok now that I got that out my system:
>> I had wondered if this is the same science stunt we used to image a blackhole...but what are they using as a light source
>
> The light is actually being generated by gas or dust that spirals very fast around the black hole itself. Things that swirl around a central object don’t move cleanly. There is a lot of turbulence and collision, and they heat up. Because the infall around BHs is so fast, they get very hot and glow.
>
> As for what frequencies they use to observe, I think it is an intersection of three considerations: 1) it has to be a wavelength long enough that the telescopes can get phase coherence, which I think means somewhere in the radio (microwave might be possible in principle, but quite difficult); 2) it has to be a wavelength that somewhat gets through all the dust between the center of the galaxy and us (I think this is the main limitation); and 3) it has to be some frequency that the BH actually emits. Small ones like BHs from single stars might emit in X-rays, but I think the large ones in galaxy centers are mostly radio sources, unless they produce jets that create a secondary source of light. (Check me on this; I could be way off.)
>
>> and how do decide on the galaxy's center
>
> I think people now believe that most galaxy centers have these large BHs in them. It’s remarkable that 50 years ago, that had not been suspected. When I was a kid, I read an old Asimov book “Quasar, quasar, burning bright”, in which none of this was even a main theory.
>
>> was this also created by the sheer weight of the galaxy?
>
> This is the thing nobody knows. They are so large, and the seem to have formed so early, that it doesn’t seem possible for star-sized BHs to form and then to merge. BHs tend to clean out the dust from the environments where they are for a long time, and without extra frictions, things just orbit for a long time, but don’t collide. I don’t know the details on how people think about this in the best version.
>
>> or did a star go kaboom their good knows when and it just happened to be more or less dead center of the galaxy?
>
> It seems people believe that the gathering that forms the galaxy is somehow related to the formation of dense things, and eventually BHs, at the center. But I don’t know.
>
>> and are they all shaped like a toilet?
>
> They are actually among the roundest things in the universe. The ring, I think, is a very special kind of orbital effects.
>
> I taught with a physics prof. In Austin who used to explain mechanics to students in a way I liked. He said “The moon is falling toward the earth, just like an apple would. It’s just that the moon is moving sideways, so it keeps missing”. And that’s all orbits are. They’re falling inward, but they keep missing.
>
> Where spacetime starts to tip very strongly near the event horizon, you can do that with light. There is a certain radius where light, traveling sideways, just goes in an orbit. A bit further in, light shining directly outward never gets further out (that is the event horizon). So I think the ring effect isn’t so much that the glowing gas makes any kind of a ring, but because there the light gets condensed into orbits, and when we look at it, it is the light just outside that orbital radius that eventually beams at us. The orbits can be going all around the BH, covering the sphere in any direction, but where we look at the central region of the disk, it is shining “sideways”, and doesn’t eventually beam out to us in a way that looks like it came from there.
>
> There are images of GR models, some of which got used in that Matthew McConaughey movie, to suggest what it would look like if you were close by, and didn’t have the combination of lensing distortions, dust, and telescope resolution limitations. I think it gives that ring look from any direction, so this doesn’t have anything to do with rotating disks. In any case, if there were a disk, we wouldn’t see it face-on, because it would be in the same plane of the galaxy as we are.
>
> Eric
>
>
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 8:08 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
>> Yeah, good stuff.
>>
>> I’m not sure when I first heard about the ALMA upgrade that would give them phase coherence across the telescopes at the frequencies the EHT is using, and data archiving that would allow them to try to coherently register telescopes sited all around the world. It feels like about a decade ago. I have been waiting, since that first notice, to see this picture. The M87 image a couple years ago was the resolution of the real cliffhanger — whether they could get it to work at all — but this one was even 2+ years harder to push through technically.
>>
>> I don’t imagine I would want to do that work. It seems like an incredible tedious grind, made for real professionals. But I am very glad to be a consumer of the outcome.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 13, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com <mailto:gil.densmore at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/science/black-hole-photo.html <https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/science/black-hole-photo.html>
>>>
>>> and it looks a bit like something melting on icecream. fudge or caramel
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