[FRIAM] quotes and questions

Tue May 17 16:52:33 EDT 2022

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Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
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On Tue, May 17, 2022, 2:44 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com> wrote:

> Western academics are mired in a culture of critique. It has severe
> limitations.
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 8:55 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Right. This is why the wet monkey theory (along with many other false but
>> useful for manipulation heuristics) fails to capture anything important
>> about "groupthink". We can re-orient Dave's no-largest-model objection
>> toward any just-so manipulative rhetoric. Of course the choice of language
>> biases the description written in it! Sheesh. And, yes, it's important to
>> make that clear to any novice entering whatever domain. Pluralism (or
>> parallax) of languages is one mitigation tactic. But another common one is
>> basic error-checking, the social process of saying out loud your
>> construction and listening as others criticize, deconstruct, or outright
>> ridicule it. Spend too much time stewing in your own juices and your
>> constructs become private. Spend too much time socializing with those who
>> agree and your constructs become groupthink. Nick likes to say he's
>> grateful for anyone who reads his writing. But the actual good faith action
>> is to criticize it. Reading it is like nodding politely with the occasional
>> "ah", "yes", "uh-huh" while someone tells you their boring story.
>> Engagement is the real objective. Reading is a mere means to that end. And
>> disagreement is demonstrative engagement.
>>
>> But [dis]agreement isn't well-covered by "contrarian", "oppositional", or
>> "adversarial". Dualism is just one form of foundationalism. Monism <
>> dualism < trialism < quadrialism < ?. 4 forces? 17 objects? 3 types of
>> object? Who cares? Those particular numbers are schematic in the larger
>> discipline of disagreement. The foundation is important. But getting hung
>> up on the particular number/value misses the forest for the trees. Arguing
>> over the number of things in the foundation is akin to arguing about the
>> meanings of words. In the spirit of "not even wrong", it's not even
>> sophistry.
>>
>> On 5/16/22 14:41, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > Glen writes:
>> >
>> > < Of course, we *could* be working our way into a fictitious corner.
>> (E.g. the just-so story of the wet monkey thing <
>> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/08/wet-monkey-theory/>,
>> where all the kids who believe in the ability of formalism(s) to capture
>> the world are simply thinking inside the box.) But what's the likelihood of
>> that? I claim vanishingly small. >
>> >
>> > Using the Standard Model, applied physicists and engineers build
>> careers and do useful work.   Are they thinking in a box?   Perhaps.  But
>> there are also physicists who are obsessed with poking holes in it and
>> generalizing it.
>>
>> --
>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙
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>
>
> --
> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
> emergentdiplomacy.org
> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>
> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>
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