[FRIAM] quotes and questions

Tue May 17 16:57:27 EDT 2022

Tomorow

On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 2:53 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Like
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2022, 2:44 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Western academics are mired in a culture of critique. It has severe
>> limitations.
>>
>> On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 8:55 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Right. This is why the wet monkey theory (along with many other false
>>> but useful for manipulation heuristics) fails to capture anything important
>>> about "groupthink". We can re-orient Dave's no-largest-model objection
>>> toward any just-so manipulative rhetoric. Of course the choice of language
>>> biases the description written in it! Sheesh. And, yes, it's important to
>>> make that clear to any novice entering whatever domain. Pluralism (or
>>> parallax) of languages is one mitigation tactic. But another common one is
>>> basic error-checking, the social process of saying out loud your
>>> construction and listening as others criticize, deconstruct, or outright
>>> ridicule it. Spend too much time stewing in your own juices and your
>>> constructs become private. Spend too much time socializing with those who
>>> agree and your constructs become groupthink. Nick likes to say he's
>>> grateful for anyone who reads his writing. But the actual good faith action
>>> is to criticize it. Reading it is like nodding politely with the occasional
>>> "ah", "yes", "uh-huh" while someone tells you their boring story.
>>> Engagement is the real objective. Reading is a mere means to that end. And
>>> disagreement is demonstrative engagement.
>>>
>>> But [dis]agreement isn't well-covered by "contrarian", "oppositional",
>>> or "adversarial". Dualism is just one form of foundationalism. Monism <
>>> dualism < trialism < quadrialism < ?. 4 forces? 17 objects? 3 types of
>>> object? Who cares? Those particular numbers are schematic in the larger
>>> discipline of disagreement. The foundation is important. But getting hung
>>> up on the particular number/value misses the forest for the trees. Arguing
>>> over the number of things in the foundation is akin to arguing about the
>>> meanings of words. In the spirit of "not even wrong", it's not even
>>> sophistry.
>>>
>>> On 5/16/22 14:41, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> > Glen writes:
>>> >
>>> > < Of course, we *could* be working our way into a fictitious corner.
>>> (E.g. the just-so story of the wet monkey thing <
>>> https://www.patheos.com/blogs/unreasonablefaith/2009/08/wet-monkey-theory/>,
>>> where all the kids who believe in the ability of formalism(s) to capture
>>> the world are simply thinking inside the box.) But what's the likelihood of
>>> that? I claim vanishingly small. >
>>> >
>>> > Using the Standard Model, applied physicists and engineers build
>>> careers and do useful work.   Are they thinking in a box?   Perhaps.  But
>>> there are also physicists who are obsessed with poking holes in it and
>>> generalizing it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>>
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-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
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