[FRIAM] center of the milkyway does containt a blackhole

Gillian Densmore gil.densmore at gmail.com
Mon May 23 21:26:33 EDT 2022 

Cool^_^.

On Mon, May 23, 2022 at 4:05 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
wrote:

> Gil, hi,
>
> Want to acknowledge, but too many and too hard questions for me to pick up.
>
> However, it is worth saying that a few things are fairly simple, and where
> they are, it makes the universe more manageable to notice it.
>
> 1. We have a “hierarchy of matter”.  Meaning that we have an ordering of
> phases that we understand well.
> A — plasmas.  The electrons are free of the atoms, and it is all a big
> electrically-conductive and magnetically convective more-than-gas.  Flames
> include plasma.
> B — gases.  The electrons are now bound tightly to the atoms, but the
> atoms aren’t bound to each other, so they are still loose and floaty.
> C — nuclear matter: This is present inside the atoms, and relative to the
> nuclei, the atoms are mostly “empty space”, even though the electrons are
> as tight as they can get.  We can break nuclei, and in the early universe
> (much earlier than the plasma-phase), there was a kind of uber-plasma of
> components of nuclei, but that won’t be part of my list here.
>
> 2. When we look at stars, they actually have the same hierarchy.  So the
> follow the structure of matter.
> A — ordinary stars are a combination of plasma and gas.  The plasma is all
> the glowing stuff, and the fact that they have color and spectral lines
> comes from the fact that some part of the atmosphere is condensed as far as
> a gas phase.
> B — white dwarfs are like “star-atoms”: all the gas-floatiness is
> compressed out of them, and they are as tight as atoms in the way the
> electrons are bound around the nuclei; only star-sized.  Probably with some
> aspects like metals, in that the electrons can be shared somewhat among
> atoms.
> C — neutron stars are like “star-nuclei”: they are dense enough that all
> the electrons have combined with protons to make neutrons.  So the
> “empty-space” part of atoms has been crushed away.
>
> 3. The interesting thing is that we don’t have any more levels of stable
> matter denser than the nuclei.  So if a star gets denser than that, it
> doesn’t stop any more, and we go all the way to the black hole.  So it’s
> not mysterious that we can build three kinds of machines on Earth (fires,
> gas engines, particle accelerators), and that we have three kinds of stars
> (ordinary, white dwarf, neutron star); it is the same thing seen in two
> places.
>
>
> About higher dimensions, time, etc.  Hard to find people who talk about
> this in a no-BS way that one can also understand.  Lisa Randall wrote a
> book called “Warped Passages”; she may be somebody who has also given
> lectures that you can find on the web.  I read the book a long time ago,
> and given the subject, it’s okay.  Lisa is smart, and pretty
> straightforward.  I haven’t looked for YouTube lectures.
>
> All best,
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On May 15, 2022, at 1:15 AM, Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> thanks again for the ELI5 explanations!
>
> Something that bothers me.
> Given things around nature tend to have complementary pairs: two right
> triangles can be ligned up to make a square, the gold ratio makes for
> gorgeous baroque style art etc etc
> We have super light things and super dense things:
> so where the hell are objects like white dwarfs, or more exotic and
> surreal where linear time order doesn't exist. When have something super
> dense that pulls all kinds of stuff twards it. And it'd also seem like we'd
> have a few 4 and 5d objects running around, like some cool acid trip. What
> I mean are such warped and strange areas of space, quite possible only
> forming under ver specific conditions where:
> -Given the standard model isn't going anyplace
> -And quantum physics isn't either
> if we didn't have structured dimensions for some amount of time while the
> universe cooled: shouldn't their also be at least a few objects that didn't
> cool in away we've encountered so far: possible stars made of nothing but
> tachyons somehow (for instance) might be as many relative to mainline types
> (like the sun).
>
> lol or do I need coffee and put down science articles about weird things I
> hardly grasp?
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 3:57 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> 😍😀😁
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 12:45 AM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gil,
>>>
>>> Yes, several good questions, some with answers, some not known.
>>>
>>> Ok now that I got that out my system:
>>> I had wondered if this is the same science stunt we used to image a
>>> blackhole...but what are they using as a light source
>>>
>>>
>>> The light is actually being generated by gas or dust that spirals very
>>> fast around the black hole itself.  Things that swirl around a central
>>> object don’t move cleanly.  There is a lot of turbulence and collision, and
>>> they heat up.  Because the infall around BHs is so fast, they get very hot
>>> and glow.
>>>
>>> As for what frequencies they use to observe, I think it is an
>>> intersection of three considerations: 1) it has to be a wavelength long
>>> enough that the telescopes can get phase coherence, which I think means
>>> somewhere in the radio (microwave might be possible in principle, but quite
>>> difficult); 2) it has to be a wavelength that somewhat gets through all the
>>> dust between the center of the galaxy and us (I think this is the main
>>> limitation); and 3) it has to be some frequency that the BH actually
>>> emits.  Small ones like BHs from single stars might emit in X-rays, but I
>>> think the large ones in galaxy centers are mostly radio sources, unless
>>> they produce jets that create a secondary source of light.  (Check me on
>>> this; I could be way off.)
>>>
>>> and how do decide on the galaxy's center
>>>
>>>
>>> I think people now believe that most galaxy centers have these large BHs
>>> in them.  It’s remarkable that 50 years ago, that had not been suspected.
>>> When I was a kid, I read an old Asimov book “Quasar, quasar, burning
>>> bright”, in which none of this was even a main theory.
>>>
>>> was this also created by the sheer weight of the galaxy?
>>>
>>>
>>> This is the thing nobody knows.  They are so large, and the seem to have
>>> formed so early, that it doesn’t seem possible for star-sized BHs to form
>>> and then to merge.  BHs tend to clean out the dust from the environments
>>> where they are for a long time, and without extra frictions, things just
>>> orbit for a long time, but don’t collide.  I don’t know the details on how
>>> people think about this in the best version.
>>>
>>> or did a star go kaboom their good knows when and it just happened to be
>>> more or less dead center of the galaxy?
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems people believe that the gathering that forms the galaxy is
>>> somehow related to the formation of dense things, and eventually BHs, at
>>> the center.  But I don’t know.
>>>
>>> and are they all shaped like a toilet?
>>>
>>>
>>> They are actually among the roundest things in the universe.  The ring,
>>> I think, is a very special kind of orbital effects.
>>>
>>> I taught with a physics prof. In Austin who used to explain mechanics to
>>> students in a way I liked.  He said “The moon is falling toward the earth,
>>> just like an apple would.  It’s just that the moon is moving sideways, so
>>> it keeps missing”. And that’s all orbits are.  They’re falling inward, but
>>> they keep missing.
>>>
>>> Where spacetime starts to tip very strongly near the event horizon, you
>>> can do that with light.  There is a certain radius where light, traveling
>>> sideways, just goes in an orbit.  A bit further in, light shining directly
>>> outward never gets further out (that is the event horizon).  So I think the
>>> ring effect isn’t so much that the glowing gas makes any kind of a ring,
>>> but because there the light gets condensed into orbits, and when we look at
>>> it, it is the light just outside that orbital radius that eventually beams
>>> at us.  The orbits can be going all around the BH, covering the sphere in
>>> any direction, but where we look at the central region of the disk, it is
>>> shining “sideways”, and doesn’t eventually beam out to us in a way that
>>> looks like it came from there.
>>>
>>> There are images of GR models, some of which got used in that Matthew
>>> McConaughey movie, to suggest what it would look like if you were close by,
>>> and didn’t have the combination of lensing distortions, dust, and telescope
>>> resolution limitations.  I think it gives that ring look from any
>>> direction, so this doesn’t have anything to do with rotating disks.  In any
>>> case, if there were a disk, we wouldn’t see it face-on, because it would be
>>> in the same plane of the galaxy as we are.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 8:08 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yeah, good stuff.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure when I first heard about the ALMA upgrade that would give
>>>> them phase coherence across the telescopes at the frequencies the EHT is
>>>> using, and data archiving that would allow them to try to coherently
>>>> register telescopes sited all around the world.  It feels like about a
>>>> decade ago.  I have been waiting, since that first notice, to see this
>>>> picture.  The M87 image a couple years ago was the resolution of the real
>>>> cliffhanger — whether they could get it to work at all — but this one was
>>>> even 2+ years harder to push through technically.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t imagine I would want to do that work.  It seems like an
>>>> incredible tedious grind, made for real professionals.  But I am very glad
>>>> to be a consumer of the outcome.
>>>>
>>>> Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 13, 2022, at 11:02 AM, Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/12/science/black-hole-photo.html
>>>>
>>>> and it looks a bit like something melting on icecream. fudge or caramel
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