[FRIAM] signal and noise

[thompnickson2 at gmail.com]

I was actually rendered speechless by Jochem's post, and the website it contained.  

Verbose as I am, I am sure that all of you are grateful when I honor something with my silence.  

I am thinking more about metaphor these days and trying to reconcile metaphor with monism.  I may have to become a metaphor monist.  

A metaphor is real when it is that toward which our thinking trends in the very long run.  Oddly enough, given your alertness to dead metaphors,  a metaphor can lose its reality, as did "hoist by one's own petard" or change its reality as " shoot oneself in the foot" which I am guessing used to mean "to intentionally incapacitate oneself" and now means "to accidently do something self destructively stupid."

If we are metaphor monists, we believe that "all thought is in metaphors" and that all metaphors are to other metaphors.  Eric will instantly announce that  Ihave fallen prey to blather.  Perhaps so.  But I hope to cash this out in the next few months.  

Nick 

N 

Nick Thompson
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2022 6:23 PM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] signal and noise

Nick, 

noise is the signal - no a koan at all, but a conjecture that all that is considered noise, at this point, will eventually be revealed as signal. In part because, I believe, that the 'noise' is essential context for interpreting the signal. This is based almost entirely on natural language where syntax is inadequate for conveying meaning.

And, I was surprised when you failed to find justification from Jochen's post about metaphor and how it supports (y)our long held position that it is "metaphors all the way down."

All,

Thank you for the thoughtful responses to my question. I take to heart Glen's cautions about over generalization and "othering."  None of the conversations I was referring to were binary, and all were comprised of nuanced polyphonic positions from all participants with points of agreement as frequent as disagreement. More empathy than othering.

It does seem to me that if and when there was any kind of 'final divergence' it centered around a kind of signal-noise dichotomy along with an assertion of 'faith': e.g., anything human can do,HAL will do better; or, just say OM and drop acid.

davew


On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, at 10:22 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> David,
>
> I was with you until "signal is the noise".  Great Koan, but otherwise 
> useless for thought.
>
> When you say, however, that there is a signal in what others take to 
> be noise, of course I have to prick up my ears.  A great example of 
> this was that "junk" DNA which turned out to be, at least, structural.  
> It also turned out to be a mind of memory.  Junk Schmunk.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 7:12 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] signal and noise
>
> It seems, to me, that several conversations here—AI, hallucinogens, 
> consciousness, participant observation, and epistemology—have a common
> aspect: a body of "data" and disagreement over which subset should be 
> attended to (Signal) and that which is irrelevant (Noise).
>
> Arguments for sorting/categorization would include: lack of a Peircian 
> convergence/consensus; inability to propose proper experiments; 
> anecdotal versus systematic collection; an absolute conviction that 
> everything is algorithmic and, even if the algorithm has yet to be 
> discerned, it, ultimately, must be; etc..
>
> I often feel as if my positions on these various topics reduces, in 
> some sense, to a conviction that there is overlooked Signal in 
> everyone else's Noise; even to the point of believing the Noise IS the Signal.
>
> Is this in any way a "fair' or "reasonable" analysis?
>
> davew
>
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