[FRIAM] signal and noise

Fri Sep 9 21:10:24 EDT 2022

I always thought "shoot oneself in the foot" was inspired by cowboy
gunfighters who were in such a hurry to draw fast that they pulled the
trigger before getting their gun out of the holster.

I have a Colt 1873 revolver.  I'll see if that makes sense.  Joke!

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, 6:52 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was actually rendered speechless by Jochem's post, and the website it
> contained.
>
> Verbose as I am, I am sure that all of you are grateful when I honor
> something with my silence.
>
> I am thinking more about metaphor these days and trying to reconcile
> metaphor with monism.  I may have to become a metaphor monist.
>
> A metaphor is real when it is that toward which our thinking trends in the
> very long run.  Oddly enough, given your alertness to dead metaphors,  a
> metaphor can lose its reality, as did "hoist by one's own petard" or change
> its reality as " shoot oneself in the foot" which I am guessing used to
> mean "to intentionally incapacitate oneself" and now means "to accidently
> do something self destructively stupid."
>
> If we are metaphor monists, we believe that "all thought is in metaphors"
> and that all metaphors are to other metaphors.  Eric will instantly
> announce that  Ihave fallen prey to blather.  Perhaps so.  But I hope to
> cash this out in the next few months.
>
> Nick
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Friday, September 9, 2022 6:23 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] signal and noise
>
> Nick,
>
> noise is the signal - no a koan at all, but a conjecture that all that is
> considered noise, at this point, will eventually be revealed as signal. In
> part because, I believe, that the 'noise' is essential context for
> interpreting the signal. This is based almost entirely on natural language
> where syntax is inadequate for conveying meaning.
>
> And, I was surprised when you failed to find justification from Jochen's
> post about metaphor and how it supports (y)our long held position that it
> is "metaphors all the way down."
>
> All,
>
> Thank you for the thoughtful responses to my question. I take to heart
> Glen's cautions about over generalization and "othering."  None of the
> conversations I was referring to were binary, and all were comprised of
> nuanced polyphonic positions from all participants with points of agreement
> as frequent as disagreement. More empathy than othering.
>
> It does seem to me that if and when there was any kind of 'final
> divergence' it centered around a kind of signal-noise dichotomy along with
> an assertion of 'faith': e.g., anything human can do,HAL will do better;
> or, just say OM and drop acid.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, at 10:22 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > I was with you until "signal is the noise".  Great Koan, but otherwise
> > useless for thought.
> >
> > When you say, however, that there is a signal in what others take to
> > be noise, of course I have to prick up my ears.  A great example of
> > this was that "junk" DNA which turned out to be, at least, structural.
> > It also turned out to be a mind of memory.  Junk Schmunk.
> >
> > N
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> > ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 7:12 PM
> > To: friam at redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] signal and noise
> >
> > It seems, to me, that several conversations here—AI, hallucinogens,
> > consciousness, participant observation, and epistemology—have a common
> > aspect: a body of "data" and disagreement over which subset should be
> > attended to (Signal) and that which is irrelevant (Noise).
> >
> > Arguments for sorting/categorization would include: lack of a Peircian
> > convergence/consensus; inability to propose proper experiments;
> > anecdotal versus systematic collection; an absolute conviction that
> > everything is algorithmic and, even if the algorithm has yet to be
> > discerned, it, ultimately, must be; etc..
> >
> > I often feel as if my positions on these various topics reduces, in
> > some sense, to a conviction that there is overlooked Signal in
> > everyone else's Noise; even to the point of believing the Noise IS the
> Signal.
> >
> > Is this in any way a "fair' or "reasonable" analysis?
> >
> > davew
> >
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