[FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Sun Jan 29 12:55:32 EST 2017

Hi, Steve, 

In the end, as always, we seem to agree.  

I don't think of it as hand-wringing.  Hand wringing is what liberals do.
(};-/)

I think of it as nudging.. Uh, noodging?  What IS  that word?  

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 8:25 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Nick-

Steve, 

For me, there are only two questions I want you to ask yourself: 

Is the Trump administration likely to do things that will irrevocably
decrease the quality of life of people you care about?

yes

(How widely you cast that net is your business.)

It is ultimately my business, but the narrower I (or you, or Donald Trump)
casts it, the more likely that our "self" interest is going to lead to small
and unenlightened consequences.   I believe that Marcus coined (or a least
introduced it into this conversation) the idea that a significant property
of our (dis)loyal opposition is that they live in a small world and do many
things to seek to keep it that way.  Misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia, are
all acutely specific examples of this.

And, 

Is there anything we can do to alter that probability in any small degree?

There are myriad things we can do and I think the problem is one of finding
focus and traction.  If I throw MY measly cash at the ACLU but fail to show
up at the processes required to get my local demigog (think Susanna
Martinez) out of office, then I may have made a less than optimal decision.

I *think* your handwringing is merited, we DO have a BIG problem, but *I*
think that doing anything and everything you can think of is a good start
whilst seeking more optimal solutions that don't make us all feel as
helpless and without traction as many of us do?

- Steve

That's all I am asking. 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Nick -

I know I don't always seem to take your questions seriously, but I generally
do.  

I DO think the computer industry HAS effectively contributed to a certain
kind of isolation.  On the other hand, here we are, most of us able to
participate in a complex discussion, halfway around the world from one
another (or not), many of us unable/unwilling to actually *attend* the
Mother Church as it were (FriAM coffee klatch) because of computer
technology.  But  again on the first hand, we sit around in coffee shops
ignoring one another while chatting with friends or colleagues 7 time zones
away?!

I believe that every form of technological "leverage" follows the metaphor
at least far enough to include the "loss of sensitivity" on the strong-end
of the lever.  Sure, with the right lever, you can heave a 1 ton boulder,
but can you gently tweak the last 12 ounces of force to *gently* move it off
equilibrium?   So I'm not sure HOW to maintain sensitivity in the context of
such high leverage.  The age of Transportation, Communications, etc.
Brought huge societal problems which have either leveled out, or sadly, more
likely, normalized.

As for the barfight, I'll let you know... and just fair warning, if you take
wagers, put your money on *the other guy*, I might be scrappy, but about all
I have going for me any more is mass, the ability to take a beating, and a
willingness to gouge eyes when required.

- Steve

On 1/28/17 2:31 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve -

Is there any way in which the computer industry has contributed to the
narcissistic pandemic that is sweeping the world.  Is there anything that
participants in the computer industry could do tip the world back toward a
fact-based attractor?  

If the answer to that question is no, then I suppose that starting that
barfight might be your highest and best use.  Let me know which bar you are
going to, so I can come and watch.  

But I think the question is yes. 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Toolkit?  This rusty old box filled with rusty things that once resembled
sharp tools and useful fasteners?   

I was thinking that if we *all* burned one gallon of petrol *less* a month
(and everyone "like us") the demand would drop commensurately and the
cost/value proposition for the pipelines we all love to hate would
(eventually) drop below a certain threshold.  

Similarly, if we *all* made it a point to have one *more* thoughtful
conversation (not just a rant) with those not already in the choir,  we
might reverse the tide of *ugly* populism and replace it with something more
human (maybe still a form of populism, but not
nationalistic/xenophobic/misogynistic?).

If we *all* quit worrying about how the Trump Ascension was going to hurt
*our* personal context and recognized how it was going to hurt (or in some
twisted or strange way help) the larger context and then only consider how
our personal context would be effected in turn by the larger context (is a
happier, healthier, more informed society good or bad for you and your
family?  vs can I pay lower taxes, get more government services and be
afforded less expensive access to other resources nominally part of the
commons?)  

et cetera, ad nauseum

I know I'm preaching (somewhat) to the choir here, time to take my own
advice and go start a barfight with a Trumpian or something,
 - Steve

Ok Steve, 

The only reason to accept responsibility is to Take Charge. 

I have been able to think of only one concrete thing that I can do with my
limited set of skills:  Write Apple and tell them to stop calling new
products "I-this" and "I-that."  When are they going to release the
WE-phone.  

You must have something in your tool kit more effective than that!

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 9:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

What can WE hobbits do? 

Scratch our hairy knuckles and indulge in second dinnerses?

Fun aside, I DO appreciate your sentiment here and agree that the Narcissist
in Chief is at least partly a (focused) reflection of our own worst
qualities, and *perhaps* if we tend our own garden even a little, it will
help with the greater picture.   

- Candide

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2017 1:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>; Friam
<mailto:Friam at redfish.com> <Friam at redfish.com>
Cc: penny thompson  <mailto:penny.thompson at earthlink.net>
<penny.thompson at earthlink.net>; 'Bruce Simon'  <mailto:bjs108 at yahoo.com>
<bjs108 at yahoo.com>; 'Dix McComas'  <mailto:dixmccomas2 at gmail.com>
<dixmccomas2 at gmail.com>; 'Grant Franks'  <mailto:grantfranks at earthlink.net>
<grantfranks at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again]

Yes, agree. Trump's point of view is "Whatever I can win with is true."  And
if he wins with what we call "a lie", it is true for him. Exactly.

If you ask how we can counter and resist him, then I would say peaceful
protests are the right way. The women's march was impressive, and the
rebellion of the social media managers from the national parks is really
refreshing. Who would have thought that the national parks would strike
back? Like Treebeard who becomes alive.

In JK Rowling's novels it is the little creatures like the house elves that
beat the evil in the end. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings it is the Hobbits
that beat the evil enemy. I think in this case people like Ken Bone are the
Hobbits of the 21st century. The modern Hobbits are adverage midwestern guys
who support Mr. T-Rump and his "party" on Twitter and hope to get a bit rich
and famous along the way.

People like Ken Bone are like Frodo the Hobbit, Mr. T-Rump is Sauron and
Jack Dorsey is the ringwraith. Will Ken Bone throw the ring into Mt. Doom,
i.e. will he stop following Trump on Twitter and/or quit Twitter completely?
If we all stop following and listening him he loses his power. This includes
the senior Republican politicians who do not speak up against him because
they hope for a job in his administration.

Cheers,

Jochen

Sent from my Tricorder

-------- Original message --------

From: Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net
<mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net> > 

Date: 1/28/17 01:57 (GMT+01:00) 

To: Friam <Friam at redfish.com <mailto:Friam at redfish.com> > 

Cc: penny thompson <penny.thompson at earthlink.net
<mailto:penny.thompson at earthlink.net> >, 'Bruce Simon' <bjs108 at yahoo.com
<mailto:bjs108 at yahoo.com> >, 'Dix McComas' <dixmccomas2 at gmail.com
<mailto:dixmccomas2 at gmail.com> >, 'Grant Franks' <grantfranks at earthlink.net
<mailto:grantfranks at earthlink.net> > 

Subject: [FRIAM] [[Narcissism Again]again] 

Hi everybody,

I kind of got buried by the list last week, but we seem to keep coming back
to this topic, even when we are  talking about globalism. 

So.  Let me just share one thought.  I have said a hundred times that I
think the great achievement of the Right in my life time has been to
problematize (Ugh!) the Deweyan consensus of the 1950's  One of the elements
of that consensus was that there is a truth of most matters and if we gather
inclusively, talk calmly, reason closely, study carefully, investigate
rigorously,  we will, together , come to it.  What was, at the time of my
coming of age, the shared foundation of argument, became over last 50 years,
a position in the argument.  The alternative to this Deweyan position seems
to be something like, "There is no truth of the matter; there is only the
exercise of power.  He who wins the argument, by whatever means, wins the
truth.  Truth is not something that is arrived at; it is won."

So.  My sense of trump is that in fact, he is not lying.  On the contrary,
he does not share the view of discourse that makes lying a possibility.
>From Trump's point of view, "Whatever I can win with is true."  Hence, if he
wins with what we call "a lie", it is true. 

I feel we are straying along the edge of some Nietzschean chasm here.
Unfortunately  I haven't read any Nietzsche .  A brief rummage in Wikipedia,
led me to The Parable of the Madman
<http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/nietzsche-madman.asp> . And THAT led me
to wonder if the TV Series, Madmen <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> ,
about marketing execs in the 60's, was written with Nietzsche in mind.  In
any case, if there is ever a domain in which the truth is that which wins,
it would be marketing. 

So, if we are going to counter Trump, it cannot be by demonstrating that he
lies.  It has to be by demonstrating that liars don't win. 

Heavy lift.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 

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