[FRIAM] Postmodernism for Rationalists

[Frank Wimberly]

This stimulated a memory.  When I was a sophomore at Carnegie Mellon one of
my classmates, FM, was one of the most enthusiastic fraternity boys ever.
I transferred to Berkeley that year.  When I returned to CMU as a graduate
student 5 years later he was also a grad student and a florid Hippie.  I
recently did a search and discovered that he is a prominent member of a
folk-dancing group for elders.  Some people are like chameleons; I am not
being judgmental.

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Nov 18, 2017 5:44 PM, "Prof David West" <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> I believe Frank is generally right. However,when I was in college in the
> late sixties hippies were in full bloom but  Maynard G Krebs (Adventures of
> Dobie Gillis) was a TV icon and Lord Buckley was on the pop radio.
>
> dave west
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017, at 05:39 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> In my experience, growing up in n the Bay Area, Beatniks had come and gone
> before the Hippies emerged.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Nov 18, 2017 11:15 AM, "Steven A Smith" <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>
> Glen ☣-
>
> A Postmodernist trying to Rationalize Postmodernism to Rationalists?
>
> Actually I found it somewhat interesting...  and was (nicely?) put off by
> the formatting... the ragged use of bullet points... a "bulleted list of
> one" seems very symbolic of my caricature of PoMo aesthetic.
>
> As for the summary you included here from the presentation:
>
> Best of Times:
>
>     A) my introduction (informal) to PoMo presented significantly as both
> dogmatic and ideological... but that may have been partly projection and
> partly the selectivity of what I *recognized as* PoMo.
>     2) The "focus on human values" is a tautological statement?  PoMo
> seems to be centered (to the exclusion of all else) on a subjectivity that
> is intrinsically "human" and maybe even more acutely "self" as in
> "self-centered"?    I'm not trying to say that I don't find the PoMo
> perspective useful and even appealing in many ways, but in it's purest
> form, it would seem to degenerate to pure narcissism (without judgement of
> that)?
>     c.) Definitely seems to help "expand the mind" in roughly the same
> manner that hallucinagens do?  I also don't mean that to be acutely
> dismissive, but the mechanism seems to be similar to this, and/or maybe
> "annealing" with repeated (arbitrary?) randomizing of the smallest elements
> with thermal excitation?
>     IV) This one feels like the most useful (or least challenging?) of his
> observations.
>
>
> Worst of Times:
>
>     0.0 My earliest introduction to PoMo was exclusively (selective
> hearing?) used to push shoddy agendas...  I observed it being used as a
> turd in the punchbowl more than anything.  I think I'm (well?) past judging
> it by that early introduction, but I think the author cited here is (in
> other text) pointing at the abuses of the Alt.Right these days.
>     II.) I like the allusion to Cargo Cult...  and it fits the superficial
> approach of PoMo as I apprehend it...   elevating correlation (free
> association)  to the level of causation.  Ignoring the implicit
> commutativity in the Form/Function duality.  I don't mean PoMo is
> intrinsically superficial, but rather that it is often invoked in that mode
> and perhaps (too) often apprehended that way in an attempt to dismiss it's
> confrontational style (nature?).
>     c.a) 0.0 above exhibited in this way more than not... it was the tool
> of self-styled "young Turks" who, in some ways, like the Anarchists of
> early c20, recognized that it is easier (and can be more satisfying) to
> toss a bomb into things than it is to try to deconstruct/reconstruct
> thoughtfully.
>     Zed ☣) The existential loneliness of PoMo seems to associate it with
> Nihilism and may drive the worst aspects of it's presentation in culture?
>
>
> PoMo seems "mature" enough now that it, itself is wanting to be received
> seriously (trying to rationalize itself to rationalists?).   It's
> (unfortunate) association with the Beat culture (my experience growing up
> was that the Beats were mostly the over-30 dropout men who were trying to
> horn in on the youth culture of the Hippies, especially (surprise!) the
> girls) and aspects of the (subsequent) drop-out culture exemplified by the
> Merry Pranksters.
>
> But what comes after/follows-from PoMo?   Post-Postmodernism?
> MetaModernism?   A plenitude of *modernisms (as suggested by the PoMo
> aesthetic?)
>
> From the Wikipedia Post Postmodernism entry:
>
> *Salient features of postmodernism are normally thought to include the
> ironic play with styles, citations and narrative levels,**[6]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-6>** a
> metaphysical skepticism or **nihilism
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism>** towards a “**grand narrative
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_narrative>**” of Western culture,**[7]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-7>** a
> preference for the virtual at the expense of the real (or more accurately,
> a fundamental questioning of what 'the real' constitutes)**[8]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-8>** and a
> “waning of affect”**[9]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-9>** on the
> part of the subject, who is caught up in the free interplay of virtual,
> endlessly reproducible signs inducing a state of consciousness similar to
> schizophrenia.**[10]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-10>*
>
> All I know about PoPoMo I just read in Wikipedia (how non-PoMo of me?) but
> recognize some of the ideas and names referenced there.   Eric Gan's
> PostMillenialism struck me for it's dismissal (judgement?) of PoMo as
> "victimary thinking"... a corollary of nihilism?   I don't really take
> Gan's Generative Anthropology seriously (though it has interesting ideas)
> and DO (against my personal convenience) believe in a
> postCapitalist/postDemocracy (r)evolution on the cusp of happening (perhaps
> even in my lifetime?).
>
> I also find something interesting in this description of metaModernism
> (same source):
>
> *As examples of the metamodern sensibility Vermeulen and van den Akker
> cite the 'informed naivety', 'pragmatic idealism' and 'moderate fanaticism'
> of the various cultural responses to, among others, climate change, the
> financial crisis, and (geo)political instability.*
>
> *The prefix 'meta' here refers not to some reflective stance or repeated
> rumination, but to Plato's **metaxy
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaxy>**, which intends a movement
> between opposite poles as well as beyond.**[25]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-postmodernism#cite_note-25>*
>
>
> Fire away!
>  - Sieve
>
>
>
> HTML:https://palegreendot.net/rrg_notes/2017/10/09/rrg-reading-notes.html
> PDF:https://palegreendot.net/assets/2017-10-09/postmodernism_for_rationalists.pdf
>
> I appreciated these 2 slides:
>
>
> • Postmodernism at its best
>
>   · Not dogmatic and ideological
>   · Focuses on human values
>   · Allows you to approach and understand other subjects and viewpoints
>   · Acknowledges that the territory might require multiple maps
>
> • Postmodernism at its worst
>
>   · Used to push shoddy political agendas
>   · Cargo cult ideology
>   · Used to rationalize and excuse asocial behavior
>   · Results in existential loneliness
>
>
>
>
>
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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