[FRIAM] AI and argument

Wed Oct 4 11:51:02 EDT 2017

Frank, Glen, Dave, and all,

What, on your various accounts is the relationship between “logic”,  “right thinking”, “right reasoning”, and “truth”?  As I understand Peirce, a true opinion is one that is likely to endure indefinitely, unchallenged by any new experiences, “right reasoning and thinking” are methods of inference that lead (fallibly] to such true opinions, and logic is the distillation and formalization of such methods of inference.  Peirce was the premier logician of his time and the origin of much of our modern statistical method and scientific logic.  Am I wrong about his views on right thinking and truth?  Or do you guys hold different views?   Is this just some sort of semantic food fight that we can tidy up with a few quick definitions and move on?  Or are we really arguing about something, here?   Am not interested in the fine points of your thought, right now.  What is it that you all agree on that I don’t understand?  

Dave, it’s great to hear your voice!  Will I see you this Friday at FRIAM?  Did you report out on your Short Course?  

Nick  

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2017 6:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] AI and argument

Don't be discouraged.  I think what I said is incorrect.  What I should have said is that in logic a false premise implies everything so for instance F -> F is true.  Which puzzles people.  Although it is used ironically as in "If Trump is a genius then I'll go fly a kite".

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Oct 3, 2017 11:11 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net <mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net> > wrote:

Yes, well.  I guess with respect to what you write below, it is time for me to retire in disorder from the conversation, as I always seem to when logic is under discussion.  I do think that Peirce believed that, in the fullness of time, sound reasoning should lead more often than its alternative to expectations that are confirmed by experience.    And I also thought I had been taught that deductive reasoning can be valid, even when none of its premises is true.  But I seem to be putting these two ideas together wrong. 

[sigh]  I hate when that happens. 

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 9:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] AI and argument

>But to the extent that we were talking about logic, is not logic the formalization of good thought?  

Not necessarily.  For instance:  "If A then B implies A" is logically valid but most people would feel that it's stupid thinking.  "Every statement implies a true statement" is true if you look at the truth table but this illustrates the difference between propositional calculus and natural language.  I suspect you mean sound reasoning by "good thought".

Is that responsive to your question?

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918 <tel:(505)%20670-9918> 

On Oct 3, 2017 8:52 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net <mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net> > wrote:

Well, as a Peircean, I am certainly NOT allowed to believe that all valid logic is deductive, so Got Me There!

But to the extent that we were talking about logic, is not logic the formalization of good thought?  So, then, it behooves one who would claim that an argument is logic to formalize it. So, in which logical world (if not deductive logic) does the statement that Einstein is usually right lead directly, without an intervening premise, to the conclusion that I should provisionally believe him.  I think the argument IS deductive (in this case) and that the suppressed premise is that I should treat all people who are usually right provisionally as authorities.  (i.e., as people to be believed until contrary evidence teaches us otherwise. )

n

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of g??? ?
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2017 6:30 PM
To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] AI and argument

Hm.  My example is simply an argument that I do NOT think succumbs to that fallacy.  Einstein is a reliable, but not completely unchallengeable, authority.  And if he is challenged, we can dig into the theory to find our own reasoning.

I'm curious if you believe all argument/reasoning can be *accurately* formalized?  Worse yet, do you believe that all argument can be reduced to deduction?

On 10/03/2017 05:13 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Aren't you missing a premise, if you are seeking a valid deductive argument?
>
> What connects Albert's thought with your conclusion?

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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