[FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)
Merle Lefkoff
merlelefkoff at gmail.com
Thu Sep 14 16:27:57 EDT 2017
Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's
"The Handmaid's Tale"? I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me
out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive
societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science
fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch. Women
in the new society, of course, get the worst of it. Duh.
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com> wrote:
> Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that
> got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still
> is) on a very good track!"
>
> I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get
> control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander
> the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with
> the gerrymandering. Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it
> will be tough to get them out of power. Unfortunately, technology will not
> solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It
> won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve
> troglodyte courts. It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how
> good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when
> controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing
> their best to arrange things so that they keep it. I wish I could be more
> optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not.
>
> I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so
> angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida
> and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are
> probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states
> as such.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Stuff like--maybe revolution?
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Russ writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> "I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of
>>> Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we
>>> should get beyond that."
>>>
>>> Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Russ Abbott <
>>> russ.abbott at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM
>>>
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do
>>> about it)
>>>
>>> Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote,
>>> but I'd like to add a brief comment.
>>>
>>> I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the
>>> thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence
>>> of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor
>>> but the very existence of the American experiment."
>>>
>>> But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes
>>> it out. (That was Marcus's point.) He gives an example of Trump lying
>>> followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump
>>> supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming
>>> even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all
>>> happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when
>>> someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly
>>> what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest
>>> won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond
>>> that.) But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another
>>> time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.)
>>> Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part
>>> of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the
>>> politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact
>>> that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump
>>> opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side
>>> to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> There was a good TED talk
>>>> <https://www.ted.com/talks/caitlin_quattromani_and_lauran_arledge_how_our_friendship_survives_our_opposing_politics?rss#t-852200>
>>>> by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly
>>>> politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at
>>>> remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with. However, I think
>>>> that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most
>>>> important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades
>>>> or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by
>>>> the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other
>>>> side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without
>>>> regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor
>>>> country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil
>>>> terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks
>>>> you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself
>>>> against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized
>>>> conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them
>>>> don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as
>>>> much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and
>>>> McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms
>>>> with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward.
>>>> In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving
>>>> for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense.
>>>> That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement
>>>> mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve
>>>> every problem.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nick writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Allow me to heckle, if you will. Marcus, your post exemplifies a
>>>>> theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris
>>>>> veritas. *
>>>>> It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of
>>>>> the moment. Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this
>>>>> theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth
>>>>> about anything. I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come
>>>>> closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness
>>>>> of the social consequences of what we are saying."
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social
>>>>> properties of the group. I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is
>>>>> some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the
>>>>> diplomatic conditions in North Korea. But I wasn't talking about speaking
>>>>> impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain
>>>>> people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to
>>>>> the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at
>>>>> all). I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way
>>>>> Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or
>>>>> how deep the divisions go. I think that is bad advice because it rewards
>>>>> the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that
>>>>> the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility. So, unlike
>>>>> Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace. (That's a fine thing for him to
>>>>> optimize for, but that's him.) It reminds me of what Christopher
>>>>> Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian
>>>>> conservatives: "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead
>>>>> to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great
>>>>> pleasure to take part."
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Nick Thompson <
>>>>> nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
>>>>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do
>>>>> about it)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Marcus, Owen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Allow me to heckle, if you will. Marcus, your post exemplifies a
>>>>> theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris
>>>>> veritas. *It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in
>>>>> the heat of the moment. Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness
>>>>> of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak
>>>>> the truth about anything. I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we
>>>>> come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest
>>>>> awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>>>
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>
>>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
>>>>> Daniels
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
>>>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do
>>>>> about it)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Owen,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural
>>>>> third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in
>>>>> person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine." Now, some people think that
>>>>> in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.
>>>>> That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings,
>>>>> all conflict will be resolved. No. I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman,
>>>>> and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.
>>>>> Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it
>>>>> certainly isn't informative. It is just the application of social skill,
>>>>> and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in
>>>>> debate. It is a weak facilitator. The problem with the current situation
>>>>> is that one side is just dishonest. In the ternary world of politics, the
>>>>> `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Owen Densmore <
>>>>> owen at backspaces.net>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
>>>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group
>>>>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about
>>>>> it)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story"
>>>>> (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of
>>>>> what we've been dealing with.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-
>>>>> upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Owen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ============================================================
>>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Russ Abbott
>>>> Professor, Computer Science
>>>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Russ Abbott
>>> Professor, Computer Science
>>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>> Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
>> Saint Paul University
>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>>
>> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
>> mobile: (303) 859-5609
>> skype: merle.lelfkoff2
>> twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> --
> Russ Abbott
> Professor, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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