[FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow

Sun Apr 28 16:51:28 EDT 2019

Last colonoscopy I was thoroughly anesthetized but totally conscious. In recovery room, doctor explaining he had removed three minor polyps and I interrupted to say I thought I counted four. Shocked look on his part then told me the fourth was more like a skin tag. The anesthesia did prevent feeling, just not consciousness. 

Dave west

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> No. But people who are under light anesthesia such as during a colonoscopy sometimes talk. I don't think they remember that.
> 
> -----------------------------------
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:32 PM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Oh, yes. We agree that I was unconscious. And if you had been there, you would have experienced my unconsciousness. But did I? I think a person who adopts your position has to say, “No.”____

>> __ __

>> Nicholas S. Thompson____

>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology____

>> Clark University____

>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/____

>> __ __

>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 27, 2019 12:16 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow____

>> __ __

>> Yes, you were unconscious. As you know, I had that experience a few days ago.____

>> __ __

>> Frank____

>> -----------------------------------
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>> 
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>> 
>> Phone (505) 670-9918____

>> __ __

>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 12:13 PM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:____

>>> Hi Frank, ____

>>> ____

>>> The problem is that one has immediately to ask, what is the contrast class of experiencing consciousness? Experiencing non-consciousness? I think for your line of thinking, where consciousness is direct, that’s an oxymoron. For my line of thinking, when I woke up from my surgery and 24 hours had passed, I had a powerful experience of my non-consciousness. ____

>>> ____

>>> Nick ____

>>> ____

>>> Nicholas S. Thompson____

>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology____

>>> Clark University____

>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/____

>>> ____

>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, April 27, 2019 11:33 AM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A Question For Tomorrow____

>>> ____

>>> Jon,____

>>> ____

>>> How about "experiences consciousness" in place of has consciousness.____

>>> ____

>>> Frsnk____

>>> ____

>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>> 
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>> 
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>> 
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918____

>>> ____

>>> On Sat, Apr 27, 2019, 11:03 AM Jon Zingale <jonzingale at gmail.com> wrote:____

>>>> Nick,____

>>>> ____

>>>> I love that the title of this thread is 'A question for tomorrow'.____

>>>> My position continues to be that the label `conscious` is meaningful,____

>>>> though along with you, I am not sure what language to use around it.____

>>>> For instance, can something *have* consciousness? That said, a____

>>>> conservative scoping of the phenomena I would wish to describe____

>>>> with *consciousness language* begins with granting consciousness____

>>>> to more than 7 billion things on this planet alone. Presently, for those____

>>>> that agree thus far, it appears that the only way to synthesize new things____

>>>> with consciousness is to have sex (up to some crude equivalence).____

>>>> This constraint seems an unreasonable limitation and so the problem____

>>>> of synthesizing consciousness strikes me as reasonably near, ie.____

>>>>  `a question for tomorrow` and not some distant future.____

>>>> ____

>>>> You begin by asking about the Turing machine, an abstraction which____

>>>> summarizes what we can say about processing information. Here,____

>>>> I am going to extend Lee's comment and ask that we consider____

>>>> particular implementations or better particular embodiments.____

>>>> ____

>>>> Hopefully said without too much hubris, given enough time and____

>>>> memory, I can compute anything that a Turing machine can compute.____

>>>> The games `Magic the Gathering` and `Mine Craft` are Turing____

>>>> complete. I would suspect that under some characterization, the____

>>>> Mississippi river is Turing complete. It would be a real challenge____

>>>> for me state what abstractions like `Mine Craft` experience, but____

>>>> sometimes I can speak to my own experience. Oscar Hammerstein____

>>>> mused about what Old Man River knows.____

>>>> ____

>>>> Naively, it seems to me that some kind of information processing,____

>>>> though not sufficient, is necessary for experience and for a foundations____

>>>> for consciousness. Whether the information processor needs to be____

>>>> Turing complete is not immediately obvious to me, perhaps a finite-____

>>>> state machine will do. Still, I do not think that a complete description of____

>>>> consciousness (or whatever it means to experience) can exist without____

>>>> speaking to how it is that a thing comes to sense its world.____

>>>> ____

>>>> For instance, in the heyday of analogue synthesizers, musicians____

>>>> would slog these machines from city to city, altitude to altitude,____

>>>> desert to rain-forested coast and these machines would notoriously____

>>>> respond in kind. Their finicky capacitors would experience the____

>>>> change and changes in micro-farads would ensue. What does an____

>>>> analogue synthesizer know?____

>>>> ____

>>>> Cheers,____

>>>> Jonathan Zingale____

>>>> ____

>>>> ============================================================
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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>> ============================================================
>>  FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>  Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>  to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>  archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>  FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> 
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