[FRIAM] narcissism

[Frank Wimberly]

Does this quote from Kernberg have to do with your feeling that there are
two types of narcissist:


In general their relationships with other people are clearly exploitive and
sometimes parasitic. It is as if they feel they have the right to control
and possess others and to exploit them without guilt feelings--and behind a
surface which very often is charming and engaging, one senses coldness and
ruthlessness.
Very often such patients are considered to be dependent because they need
so much tribute and adoration from others but on a deeper level they are
completely unable really to depend on anybody because of their deep
distrust and depreciation of others.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 12:42 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think I said that person's with NPD are almost psychotic.  I checked
> with my wife, a very experienced clinician, and she says that is not
> correct.  But she also says that there are not two types.  One interesting
> thing that she said is that her mentor, a training analyst, said that after
> treating a narcissist for many years you can uncover a severe obsessional
> personality at which point you have to start again to treat that.  That
> implies a treatment length that only someone like Woody Allen can afford.
> I'm not saying that he's a malignant narcissist.
>
> I am speaking over my head but obviously DSM-V may oversimplify.
>
> My wife says that the book I mentioned, "Analysis of the Self" by Kohut is
> not as good as "Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism" by Otto
> Kernberg.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020, 12:12 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Waco
>> https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/waco/s01
>>
>> I don't know much about Koresh or the Branch Davidians. I remember
>> watching it (and the Ruby Ridge coverage) on TV back then. (I was pretty
>> libertarian back then ... but that was back when the word "libertarian"
>> meant something ... it's a useless word these days. So my understanding of
>> these events was heavily biased by that.) This TV show does a good job, I
>> think, of showing Koresh simply edit out his abuse of the flock while
>> maintaining an air of authenticity in other domains. And the supporting
>> character (Paul Sparks/Steve Schneider) states it explicitly when he says
>> something like "I wish God had chosen someone else" or somesuch ... because
>> Koresh was such a jerk.
>>
>> My conscious attempt to empathize with everyone, in every context, no
>> matter how deplorable it might be, prevents me from accusing someone like
>> Koresh of *rational* manipulation. I tend to think his manipulation of
>> others is the *same* as his manipulation of himself. In programming, we use
>> the term "reflection" or "introspection" to talk about an object
>> manipulating itself in the same way it manipulates other objects (and vice
>> versa). In some circles, it's called "reflexive", which I think is
>> misleading. The idea is that you treat yourself as other or you treat
>> others as yourself.
>>
>> When I hear descriptions of narcissism, this self-other mixing seems
>> absent, which makes all the descriptions of narcissists seem cartoonish and
>> wrong. They portray narcissists as hyper-rational, manipulate others to get
>> what you want, sociopaths [†]. But if all people do a little bit of
>> self-manipulation as well as other-manipulation (and it's the same
>> tools/anatomy that does the manipulation), then narcissists are *not*
>> hyper-rational sociopaths. They can't be if they *feel* hurt by the words
>> of others, insecure, self-important, grandiosity, etc. If they have
>> feelings at all *and* they manipulate their self like they manipulate
>> others, then they can't be these hyper-rational sociopaths. It's either a
>> contradiction or a paradox that needs resolving.
>>
>> We can see this in the DSM 5 _Alternative_ model. The 1st two trait
>> categories (section A, 1-4) are other-centric, whereas the 2nd two are
>> self-centric. Section B's categories seem to flip too, where grandiosity
>> seems self-centric and attention seeking seems to be other-centric. It
>> leaves me wondering if there are really 2, fundamentally different types of
>> narcissism, that driven by an external locus vs. that drive by an internal
>> locus, where the former cares deeply what others think/feel and the latter
>> is totally apathetic to (or denies outright) others' thoughts/feelings. If
>> that's plausible, then former-type narcissists would (as Frank said last
>> week) live horrifying lives, but the latter-types might get a bit
>> frustrated by the complexity of the machine they have to live inside, but
>> could live very happy, solipsistic lives.
>>
>>
>> [†] By "sociopath", I mean something like: someone who doesn't mirror the
>> feelings of others in themselves. Sorry if that's non-standard. I'm using
>> it because I don't have a better word for such a person.
>>
>> --
>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>>
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