[FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

[Frank Wimberly]

Do not go gently into that good night.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:29 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I like the image of two old men on their deathbed shaking their fists.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:17 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
>> It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve
>> witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds
>> you’d be shaking your fists about it.   Obviously it was not “abuse”.  It
>> seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the
>> brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like
>> Neuralink is poised to do.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest.  Please
>> read a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.
>>
>>
>>
>> I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick
>> in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him.  During the first
>> year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I
>> took a course in cognitive processes.  One of the themes of that course was
>> the failure of behaviorism.  That approach was described to us as an early
>> 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that
>> the result was a realization that that was not possible.  After a  year I
>> became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and
>> I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer
>> science.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what
>> he meant by that.  And my recollection is that he said that he thought that
>> people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings
>> and beliefs from their behavior.  I found this to be anathema because to me
>> my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with
>> certainty.  Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he
>> could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After
>> extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.
>>
>>
>>
>> We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and
>> generally had an enjoyable friendship.  We cooperated on the Santa Fe
>> Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I
>> attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book
>> Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University.  That
>> book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a
>> position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride
>> to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit
>> privately before joining the meeting.
>>
>>
>>
>> Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid
>> test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test.  He then
>> mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe
>> in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him.  I knew he had been feeling
>> badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from
>> Bonnet's Syndrome.  Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the
>> topic.  If so, I apologize again.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Colleaugues,
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we
>> should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list
>> become drowned in laments about lumbago.  In retrospect,  I wish I had
>> informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the
>> attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any
>> who would persue the matter further.
>>
>>
>>
>> I tried, unsuccessfully,  to bridge to the less personal topic to
>> Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me
>> philosophically.  Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with
>> psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming.  The
>> enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex
>> structures, and  blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable
>> transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist.  Where the hell does the
>> information come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my
>> brain.  I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of
>> you are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your
>> words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how
>> abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims
>> take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply
>> joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the
>> rest.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning,
>> and so more absurd than abusive.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>>
>> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
>>
>> > To: friam at redfish.com
>>
>> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>>
>> >
>>
>> > It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on
>> possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the
>> habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify
>> the habit as abusive.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> >> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies.  I am
>> hoping that you didn't find it so.  Marcus hasn't been privy to the
>> hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over
>> the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
>>
>>
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>
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