[FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

Tue Dec 8 15:29:26 EST 2020

I like the image of two old men on their deathbed shaking their fists.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 1:17 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> It amused me that you two were so invested in this argument (that we’ve
> witnessed over the years directly and tangentially), that on your deathbeds
> you’d be shaking your fists about it.   Obviously it was not “abuse”.  It
> seems silly to me because if one want to understand the functioning of the
> brain, one would experiment on it like Hubel and Wiesel did, and like
> Neuralink is poised to do.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 8, 2020 11:45 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread
>
>
>
> This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest.  Please read
> a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.
>
>
>
> I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick
> in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him.  During the first
> year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I
> took a course in cognitive processes.  One of the themes of that course was
> the failure of behaviorism.  That approach was described to us as an early
> 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that
> the result was a realization that that was not possible.  After a  year I
> became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and
> I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer
> science.
>
>
>
>
>
> When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what
> he meant by that.  And my recollection is that he said that he thought that
> people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings
> and beliefs from their behavior.  I found this to be anathema because to me
> my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with
> certainty.  Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he
> could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After
> extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.
>
>
>
> We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and
> generally had an enjoyable friendship.  We cooperated on the Santa Fe
> Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I
> attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book
> Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University.  That
> book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a
> position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride
> to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit
> privately before joining the meeting.
>
>
>
> Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid
> test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test.  He then
> mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe
> in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him.  I knew he had been feeling
> badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from
> Bonnet's Syndrome.  Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the
> topic.  If so, I apologize again.
>
>
>
> Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Colleaugues,
>
>
>
> There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we should
> adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list become
> drowned in laments about lumbago.  In retrospect,  I wish I had informed
> one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the attendees
> when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any who would
> persue the matter further.
>
>
>
> I tried, unsuccessfully,  to bridge to the less personal topic to
> Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me
> philosophically.  Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with
> psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming.  The
> enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex
> structures, and  blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable
> transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist.  Where the hell does the
> information come from?
>
>
>
> It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my
> brain.  I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of
> you are.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>
>
>
> Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your words,
> for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how abusers will
> say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims take offense.
> The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply joking and the
> snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the rest.
>
>
>
> On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > I was kidding, of course.. believing the topic to be devoid of meaning,
> and so more absurd than abusive.
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 8:09 AM
>
> > To: friam at redfish.com
>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>
> >
>
> > It's important, even/especially for long-term partners, to reflect on
> possibly abusive habits. Even if the abused and the abuser *agree* that the
> habit isn't intentional abuse, an outsider will often *rightly* identify
> the habit as abusive.
>
> >
>
> > On 12/7/20 6:23 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> >> If you agree that was mean please accept my sincere apologies.  I am
> hoping that you didn't find it so.  Marcus hasn't been privy to the
> hundreds of frank, sometimes humorous, in-person exchanges between us over
> the last 15+ years and I meant it in that spirit.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
>
>
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