[FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?

[Merle Lefkoff]

Wow, Karl is my guy, but I didn't know about this.  Thank you Stephen.

To get to Nick's problem, we are at point in the history of our species on
this planet where I think we must pay attention to the adjacent possible
"truth" of an ecozoic vision (Thomas Berry) that involves an inter-species
future.  Someone recently said  "science is a glass half filled" and that's
because as practiced by most, science has become a system of thought closed
to any but its own "truth."  Doesn't the best science embrace methods that
consider all assumptions and facts to be open to question?  The division
between what is "real" from what is "belief"  cancels out the possibility
of what emerges that is beyond the grasp of modern science.

Einstein famously said "Imagination is more important than knowledge."  The
imaginary story is missing in science, colonized by a mind-set and
methodology that demands proof of "existence."  Physicist David Bohm, the
godfather of the generative dialogue we teach and practice, understood this
when he wrote that discussion (and by extension experimentation--not lived
experience) uses only rational intelligence, while a full investigation of
wicked problems demands additional perspectives perceived through our
senses, emotions, self-awareness, and intuition.  There is more than one
Truth to be discovered, dear Nick, and that ain't bat-shit.






On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
wrote:

> Nick writes:
> >  But some assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so
>
> Knowing some of the background where Merle is coming from: Rights of
> Nature, Ecocide Law, etc
> <https://medium.com/@pella.thiel/time-for-a-universal-declaration-on-the-rights-of-nature-ad97263a39f4>,
> it just may be our current Economic and Scientific paradigms
> (Evolution/Competition/Captalism) in Science are literally driving us
> batshit crazy.
>
> Provably batshit crazy.
>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act
>
> BTW, I got to the Guano_islands_Act starting from a google search of
> "metabolic sovereignty" *  as I thought it might get at Merle's idea
> scientificially.
>
> This quickly got me to Marx's metabolic Rift
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_rift> from which the Guano
> Islands Act popped up.
>
> -Stephen
>
> * I'm supposed to be writing a paper today that has something to do with
> self-sovereign identity in decentralized systems which is why sovereignty
> is on my mind.
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Stephen.Guerin at Simtable.com <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
> CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com
> 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
> office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828
> twitter: @simtable
> z <http://zoom.com/j/5055775828>oom.simtable.com
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:39 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think I disagree, Merle.  If we lose faith that there is a truth to be
>> found concerning the matters of which we speak *as scientists*, we lose
>> everything. When we speak as  poets, etc., of course, we relax that
>> constraint.  But what defines science for me is that there are truths to be
>> found.  I am pretty sure Glen also disagrees with me, and DaveW and maybe
>> Kim, so you are in good company.   If anything characterizes the assault on
>> society of the last 4 years, it is the undermining of faith in the notion
>> of convergent inquiry.  The first domino to fall was anthropology, in the
>> sixties, which led to a mayhem of political correctness and purges that
>> destroyed the field.  Sure we have to respect people equally.  Sure we have
>> to treat their metaphysical non-sense on a par with our own.  But some
>> assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so, and if you entertain the
>> notion that all assertions are equally true, you might just as well drink
>> the kool-aid and climb the  ramp into the space ship, so far as I am
>> concerned.   I will wave you a sad good bye because we everybody’s
>> shoulders to the truth-wheel if we are to survive.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2020 1:15 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"?
>>
>>
>>
>> "True" things about the world beyond the reach of science must be
>> included in the expanding dialogue, like a mountain that is also an earth
>> being, or forest animals that are spirit masters of their worlds. We can
>> think of them as other-than-humans, but they "exist" in indigenous
>> cultures.  They are only "beliefs" in ours,  but for those of us who are
>> "Animists", they are always present in the dialogue.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, I'm once again down in a rabbit hole over whether Dave's (cautiously
>> backed by Kim) idea of a "science of the mind" is reasonable, wherein
>> subjective/reflective techniques like psychedelic drugs or meditation can
>> say "true" things about the world, particularly that may be beyond the
>> reach of science. And there I am reading about Falun Gong <
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong> and its "outlets" like The
>> Epoch Times, which spew constant nonsense, feeding the delusional QAnon
>> narratives:
>>
>>
>> https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-newest-trump-boosted-viral-maga-star-has-ties-to-the-epoch-times
>>
>> And I'm wondering, where are the "patriot hackers" and Anonymous?
>>
>> What happened to all that rigmarole about protecting the world and the
>> internet from insidious sh¡t like The Epoch Times? Is it that ostensibly
>> white hat members are combating shallow techniques like DDoS so well that
>> the script kiddies who used to claim to be Anonymous are outmatched? Maybe
>> Assange siding with Trump fractured the group? And what about the Jester <
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jester_(hacktivist)>, who was arguably
>> more capable than the large majority of hacktivists? Was he hired by the
>> NSA and now works alone in a steel cage? Or has his mind been infected by
>> the attractive conspiracy theories and persecution complexes we dorks are
>> so susceptible to?
>>
>> I feel confident that some of you have some insight! Please share.
>>
>> --
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>>
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>>
>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>>
>> twitter: @merle110
>>
>>
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-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110
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