[FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply

[Frank Wimberly]

👍

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly



Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Jan 16, 2020, 1:39 AM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Not sophmoric smarminess - but a contradiction of your monism.  "you are a
> model" contradicts "my model of you"  which asserts "representation" of
> something — Cartesian dualism.
>
> davew
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, at 9:44 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
>
>
> I apologize forwhat may seem sophomoric smarminess but…..
>
>
>
> To me, you are a model, right?  Whatever you are, it is my model of you
> with which I am dealing.  So, when you intend something  by a model, it is
> a case of a model intending a model, right?  So, models intend, right?  So
> why not just say so, in the first instance.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and
> reply
>
>
>
> There is an interesting issue that often comes up in these contexts, in
> which someone asserts that the models mean something all on their own.  If
> it is someone who has picked up our language,  they might,  for example,
> ask "What does the model intend? The Model, itself? "
>
>
>
> Glen does this by saying "there's good reason to believe you will *never*
> actually understand how your model works."
>
>
>
> I have seen Nick oscillate in those discussions, towards and away from
> thinking he needs to rewrite everything.
>
>
>
> I insist that is not the direction should be going in.  The model doesn't
> intend anything.  A person,  who is offering a model,  intends something by
> it,  and does not intend other things.  Because THAT is what we'r are
> talking about.... There IS a chance (though no guarentee) that the person
> offering a model (fully) understands what they do or do not intend to match
> between the model and the situation that is modeled.
>
>
>
> We aren't talking about anything other than people doing things. X is "a
> model" if/when someone thinks an aspect of X matches something happening
> somewhere else,  and all models contain both intended and unintended
> implications.  This makes a question of whether or not someone "fully
> understands their model" a question primarily about the understanding,  not
> primarily about "the model itself".
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 1:13 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Did Epstein ever respond to your criticism?
>
> For what little it's worth, I disagree with your lesson. Obtuse models can
> be very useful. In fact, there's good reason to believe you will *never*
> actually understand how your model works, any more than you'll ever
> understand how that model's referent(s) work. I may even be able to use
> Pierce to argue that to you. 8^)
>
> On 1/15/20 9:23 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> > The lesson is, if you
> > don’t understand how your model works, you aren’t doing yourself any
> favors by inventing it.  This led to my war with Epstein in the pages of
> JSSS about the relation between explanation and prediction.
>
> --
> ☣ uǝlƃ
>
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>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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