[FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply

Thu Jan 16 12:03:55 EST 2020

Dave, 

I don’t think it’s dualism unless I assert that the representation and the thing represented are different sorts of stuff.  If every representation is OF OTHER REPRESENTATIONS, then we have a representation-monism.  If you taunt me by asking what the FIRST representation was OF, I will shrug and say I am not that interested in first cases.  We begin in the middle.  

Snowing, here.  Fat flakes. 

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 1:39 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply

Nick,

Not sophmoric smarminess - but a contradiction of your monism.  "you are a model" contradicts "my model of you"  which asserts "representation" of something — Cartesian dualism.

davew

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, at 9:44 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>  wrote:

Eric,

I apologize forwhat may seem sophomoric smarminess but…..

To me, you are a model, right?  Whatever you are, it is my model of you with which I am dealing.  So, when you intend something  by a model, it is a case of a model intending a model, right?  So, models intend, right?  So why not just say so, in the first instance.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Eric Charles

Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:27 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] description - explanation - metaphor - model - and reply

There is an interesting issue that often comes up in these contexts, in which someone asserts that the models mean something all on their own.  If it is someone who has picked up our language,  they might,  for example,  ask "What does the model intend? The Model, itself? "

Glen does this by saying "there's good reason to believe you will *never* actually understand how your model works."

I have seen Nick oscillate in those discussions, towards and away from thinking he needs to rewrite everything.  

I insist that is not the direction should be going in.  The model doesn't intend anything.  A person,  who is offering a model,  intends something by it,  and does not intend other things.  Because THAT is what we'r are talking about.... There IS a chance (though no guarentee) that the person offering a model (fully) understands what they do or do not intend to match between the model and the situation that is modeled.  

We aren't talking about anything other than people doing things. X is "a model" if/when someone thinks an aspect of X matches something happening somewhere else,  and all models contain both intended and unintended implications.  This makes a question of whether or not someone "fully understands their model" a question primarily about the understanding,  not primarily about "the model itself". 

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020, 1:13 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > wrote:

Did Epstein ever respond to your criticism?

For what little it's worth, I disagree with your lesson. Obtuse models can be very useful. In fact, there's good reason to believe you will *never* actually understand how your model works, any more than you'll ever understand how that model's referent(s) work. I may even be able to use Pierce to argue that to you. 8^)

On 1/15/20 9:23 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>  wrote:

> The lesson is, if you

> don’t understand how your model works, you aren’t doing yourself any favors by inventing it.  This led to my war with Epstein in the pages of JSSS about the relation between explanation and prediction.  

-- 

☣ uǝlƃ

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