[FRIAM] Logo/Ideo/Phono graphic language
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Tue Oct 13 11:31:47 EDT 2020
We obviously have at least two Japanophiles here...
My (very limited) familiarity with Chinese Logographic written language
and the inherited/derived Japanese Kanji I was struck by how intrinsic
the metaphorical nature of Ideograms are. Pictograms are more
"visually onomatapoeic" which is (more than) a nod to the perceptual
grounding of language. It seems that Logographic writing mixes
Pictographic, Ideographic and even Rebus (phonetic loan words)
as-needed, with what seems like a natural drift toward phonographic
language/syllabaries (e.g. Katakana). Of course, having
metaphor-derangement-syndrome, I find metaphor everywhere and even more
to the point of my own idiosyncratic perspective, the stacking or
composition of metaphors evidenced in ideogrammatic compounds and the
broad use of radicals to combine/modify/nuance ideograms.
I'd be curious if either of you (anyone really) has more insight into
the way these written languages maintain the vestiges of their own
evolution/development and hints for how people who use these languages
might structure their thought similarly or differently to those who use
entirely phonographic writing (all of the modern West?)
- Steve
On 10/13/20 8:42 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Mentioning art and translation made me think of this book
>
> /The Chinese Written Character as a Medium for Poetry
> <https://books.google.com/books?id=P14rAH8xU9EC&printsec=frontcover>/,
> composed by the Ernest Fenollosa, edited by Ezra Pound
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Pound> after the author's death, 1918.
>
> I frequently refer to it when confronting issues of cognition and
> language and culture; and as insight into why Whorf was right and why
> he was wrong.
>
> You might enjoy it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 9:45 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>> Dave,
>>
>> Thanks, not there yet. Somewhere between Zen and Shinto, anyhows.
>>
>> The test is a mirror, in the sense that it proposed a lot of photons
>> in short order that I would not normally consider, which brought some
>> opportunity for self-reflection. A bunch of "gee, that's odd" moments.
>>
>> Sort of like studying Japanese grammar might give some insights about
>> the English language and the nature of translation. One of the
>> works that disabused me of western notions of Japanese "traditional"
>> arts was Edith Grossman's "Why Translation Matters". (note -- she
>> doesn't talk about Japan at all) Respect as engagement rather than
>> obeisance.
>>
>> C
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 9:02 PM Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm
>> <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Carl is very Japanese and master of Drum Zen.
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020, at 8:50 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> Carl -
>>>
>>> Acknowledged. The foreground/background thing is always
>>> tricky. I don't mean to attribute any reality to "personal
>>> freedoms", yet somehow "not being an ass" is something *like*
>>> respecting others "personal freedoms", even though such are in
>>> some sense an illusion. Perhaps someone can articulate this
>>> better than I have?
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>> Steve,
>>>>
>>>> You assume I have some fealty to the notion of "personal
>>>> freedoms". Perhaps that is unwarranted. I just see no
>>>> reason to be an ass.
>>>>
>>>> >>I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I
>>>> know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very*
>>>> considerate of others and their personal freedoms. That
>>>> sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:18 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com
>>>> <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Carl Tollander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -9,-8.1
>>>>> But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.
>>>>> Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.
>>>>
>>>> I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term
>>>> "Libertarian" for themselves. My experience with the
>>>> *L*ibertarian self-identified is they seem to lean toward a
>>>> virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will* on
>>>> others under the guise of protecting *their will from
>>>> subversion* . When I was younger (more juiced on the
>>>> hormones and rhetoric and appeal of competition?) I was
>>>> more seduced by some of that. Now it just makes me feel
>>>> systemically ill.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I
>>>> know, you are clearly *very* independent and *very*
>>>> considerate of others and their personal freedoms. That
>>>> sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
>>>>
>>>> - Steve
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels
>>>>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There is another aspect of staying behind which puts
>>>>> more weight on maintaining local (e.g. family and
>>>>> childhood) relationships. I don’t think this
>>>>> inclination is overtly authoritarian. However, a
>>>>> strong desire to maintain a social fabric could lead
>>>>> to policing mechanisms for them, and that brings in
>>>>> (say) the church. When a social network is more
>>>>> important than having any sort of purpose, weird
>>>>> things happen. Wired has an article on some crazies
>>>>> up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of
>>>>> *David Eric Smith
>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
>>>>> Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So this is metastasizing now, and there have been
>>>>> other decades when it wasn’t such a problem, or at
>>>>> least not as overt.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that due to demographic sorting? In more
>>>>> prosperous (or even just earlier) times, enough people
>>>>> stayed near where they were born that cultures got
>>>>> some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole
>>>>> regions “submitting too much to the authorities in
>>>>> their lives”. But when those who wanted out could get
>>>>> out, and did so systematically, the ones who stayed
>>>>> behind could create a tailored paradise for the
>>>>> preferences that had caused them to stay behind?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow
>>>>> <rec at elf.org <mailto:rec at elf.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- rec --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels
>>>>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com
>>>>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There’s a page on the 2020 election where they
>>>>> claim, among other strange things, that Warren
>>>>> is a right-leaning authoritarian. If that is
>>>>> true, which I doubt, it says to me politicians
>>>>> are mirroring the electorate in a very obscure
>>>>> way. And I am pretty sure I am not far to
>>>>> the left of Bernie Sanders.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf
>>>>> Of *Stephen Guerin
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
>>>>> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM
>>>>> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?
>>>>> Something MUST be wrong, here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>>>>
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>
>>>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,U3OccPSjskXK4svW9X1qk3Vv7E5UwkKy9mLBuwBfoPfJKYxJ6aCBK0PVs7udT_TYGhprp1R603GJlx6xKqM35rw3C-x7J0zwGZ6_tMf3hqMPHZB64xRxPw,,&typo=1>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On
>>>>> Behalf Of *Prof David West
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
>>>>> *To:* friam at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Econ left/right: -0.88
>>>>>
>>>>> Social Lib/Auth: -6.1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> davew
>>>>>
>>>>> NOT a Libertarian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, at 5:56
>>>>> PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we all agree at an insanely high
>>>>> level? Then wtf have we been arguing
>>>>> about all these years. Let’s wait
>>>>> until Glen and Dave take the test
>>>>> before we bury all our hatchets.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> n
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>>>
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and
>>>>> Psychology
>>>>>
>>>>> Clark University
>>>>>
>>>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,jI9pg2_C34oOCpyabOwNVYM7KJGCPx7H3EupAcE2q9TK2V75UO7IrMX_UOS1TIZ0puSAcbRFu09JGz8yK4gzt6DIJCqNtiA3EEOMsqYT64DoqXJS7TM,&typo=1>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Friam
>>>>> <friam-bounces at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>
>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 5:29 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied
>>>>> Complexity Coffee Group
>>>>> <friam at redfish.com
>>>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political
>>>>> compass teest
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was pretty much dead center in the
>>>>> lower left quadrant, which was
>>>>> surprising to me. I would have thought
>>>>> I would be in the middle of the whole
>>>>> graph.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George
>>>>> Duncan <gtduncan at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:gtduncan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on
>>>>> economics and strongly libertarian
>>>>> on social issues
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> George Duncan
>>>>>
>>>>> Emeritus Professor of Statistics,
>>>>> Carnegie Mellon University
>>>>>
>>>>> georgeduncanart.com
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fgeorgeduncanart.com%2f&c=E,1,7A1nvLLwvbARh5EsbrcBP_x1ncqDWHW84o2ARPieWFtHxbGsgklMKBqeuNgbEd_czryT4FTxDDbM2mCDHXdJbmd_5-i0Yf4oVpAGGN27uHZ8&typo=1>
>>>>>
>>>>> See posts on Facebook, Twitter,
>>>>> and Instagram
>>>>>
>>>>> Land: (505) 983-6895
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My art theme: Dynamic exposition
>>>>> of the tension between matrix
>>>>> order and luminous chaos.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Attempt what is not certain.
>>>>> Certainty may or may not come
>>>>> later. It may then be a valuable
>>>>> delusion."
>>>>>
>>>>> From "Notes to myself on beginning
>>>>> a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>>>>>
>>>>> "It's that knife-edge of
>>>>> uncertainty where we come alive to
>>>>> our truest power." Joanna Macy.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM
>>>>> jon zingale <jonzingale at gmail.com
>>>>> <mailto:jonzingale at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I just took the political
>>>>> compass test and surprise
>>>>> surprise, I am a
>>>>>
>>>>> left-libertarian.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take the test here if you are
>>>>> interested:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.politicalcompass.org%2ftest&c=E,1,e8hAuyhPdtiZ876M9sd6OmWzNeLJXSYR8MHrODvh3vN2g_nLrK21RY_5OBeUJlK4p0Rzh08Ymx64c4LiIgp7JiIDXXzqbbqx3zHFw_W8CPvxLq3_SnjwgA,,&typo=1>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from:
>>>>> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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>>>>> listserv
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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