[FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

Thu Oct 29 15:57:06 EDT 2020

But that’s exactly not the set of relations they want to invoke with the word “self-organization”.  Not organization imposed by a scaffold.  Organization that reflects a loss of access to a large subset of arrangements, for reasons that appeal only to the “ordinary” local properties of the system that you already knew, but that have consequences for very non-local regularities that the small-scale features don’t seem to be “about”.

Things get interesting when we get to viral capsids.  They exploit properties of statistical mechanics that enable you, by controlling the shape and surface properties of some small, rigid proteins, to manage the assembly of quite large and structured ribonucleoprotein complexes.  On the other hand, the information-carrying library that ensures those coat proteins will have forms that do assemble with functional consequences, is an outcome of Bayesian filtering according to regularities in environments.

So there is a part that uses the mechanics of "self-organization”, but only for the rightly-configured participants.  Chance favors the prepared mind.  The gods help those who help themselves (or in this case, the gods set those up to help themselves).

Eric

> On Oct 29, 2020, at 3:39 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Dave, 
>  
> Ontology, schmontology.  As others have pointed out, mine is just a trivial logical point.   Let the self (Sx) be any kind of thing (Tx) at all.  Let assembly be a process of putting things together to make a new thing.  S1 + T1 = S2 + T2 = etc.  At each point the self that is assembled is not the self that is assembling, no?  I think, on the whole, it would be better if we spoke not of self assembly, but of scaffolding where something external to the structure being formed, facilitates the formation of the structure.  So at each stage in the assembly, the previous stage “scaffolds” the next.  White smokers scaffolded the formation of life. Life scaffolded the further evolution of life.  The genome is a scaffold for natural selection.  
>  
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,-9eA0tpcGk9pd5OHwVPFZ791KirZei_eJawe0TpH2mQQh4T_CothRzV6kAT-r6c8rxSP1ri8cM7AiYAqGFm5bQnKnpsutj1uNPz3usqZODg,&typo=1>
>  
>  
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 8:04 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
>  
> Nick,
>  
> " I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is
> assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled."
>  
> By what definition? Your monist view that the self lacks ontological status in the first place?
>  
> davew
>  
>  
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jon,
> > 
> > Is a steam governor a case of downward causation?
> > 
> > This question will reveal, no doubt, that I don't understand  your previous
> > answer, but perhaps others will explain it to me. 
> > 
> > I am always troubled by the notion of "self-assembly" since the self that is
> > assembling is never, by definition, the self that is assembled. 
> > 
> > Perhaps I am getting tangled up in words again. 
> > 
> > n
> > 
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > Clark University
> > ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,H4iSezwAWby322D_ahy0aIh7MEXifMvdqHq4hHBSZ30wZfjKsrDhbeju733P9Qv-QPN3SuldVSHyJD5xE_uL7p36t7ovHvenB1KmwckqSMBWrFda5w,,&typo=1>
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of jon zingale
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 2:01 PM
> > To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
> > 
> > Nick,
> > 
> > Let's say I have a language designed to work with sticks, where for
> > instance, it makes sense to name certain relations *Triangle*. Additionally,
> > let's assume that the language is detailed enough to include less obvious
> > relations such as those which relate sticks to trees to soil and water.
> > Would it be cheap to narrowly define *downward causation* as the
> > manipulation of the world in accordance with this language to produce new
> > sticks?
> > 
> > Consider as another example when one manipulates charge in bulk using analog
> > filters. Here, a circuit designer may not need to know about spin or
> > superposition or a lot of other details about the universe. In fact, the
> > designer may not know how to write a "mid-frequency ranged filter" if they
> > were only given a quantum mechanical view of the world. They may, however,
> > know how to build such a filter if they are given appropriately shaped
> > conductive surfaces and coils.
> > 
> > My apologies in advance if this characterization (that of reducing *downward
> > causation* to manipulation of a domain-specific language) is horribly
> > flawed, but I spent this much time writing a response. So, there.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/>
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