[FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

Sun Aug 15 15:24:26 EDT 2021

“Nick's reference seems to imply it might be useful against parasites. “

Sorry.  I just took that for granted.  I have no idea.  Mine was a very shallow dive.   I also took for granted that parasite loads are greater in India than they are in the US.  Still, of both those things were true AND it was true that covid weakens parasite defense and/or that parasites weaken covid defense, then that would explain why ivermectin works in India and not,  say, in England. 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 2:09 PM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as dis-ease are manifestations of a more spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise us that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and different modes) the latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms.  

I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc.   The term "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think most also accept that when it works, it works and one would not want to remove "the placebo effect" from someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.

I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long concatenated latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very comforting to those whose only understanding of "Science" is that it has magical/mystical properties.

This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle them into doing clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into them (like bleach or perhaps something with a mercury compound)?   

>From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has never been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference seems to imply it might be useful against parasites.  I understand Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing (equatorial) countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) but with widely varying and harsh side-effects which in those contexts might be well worth the risk.   

I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around  Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It is easy do dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid, but it feels to me as if there is something much deeper and more subtle and perhaps more broadly important going on, especially if we are nearing the twilight of the Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night of our own making *with* various parts Science and Pseudoscience?

How about Reiki?

Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/> 

From: Friam  <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)

Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy with your dilemma.

Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment in situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a placebo with a bogus story behind it can be even better.

-- rec --

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org <mailto:rec at elf.org> > wrote:

Pieter --

I looked over the links you listed.  

They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of the spike in Covid cases.    Both of these claims are sort of hard to evaluate, since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion people would have been quite an achievement for any economy.  

I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68 peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases, meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.

I looked an early review article, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf, though the pdf is hosted at nature.com <http://nature.com> , it's from a different journal.

The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602 https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z
Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19 complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza Gharebaghi2,3
1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz Jundishapur University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran 
2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran 
3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA
Abstract 
Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases, with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties as a wonder drug. It is highly effective against many microorganisms including some viruses. In this comprehensive systematic review, antiviral effects of ivermectin are summarized including in vitro and in vivo studies over the past 50 years. Several studies reported antiviral effects of ivermectin on RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue, yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra, Newcastle, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest, Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory Syndrome, Human immunodeficiency virus type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies showing antiviral effects of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK polyomavirus, pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine herpesvirus 1. Ivermmust beectin plays a role in several biological mechanisms, therefore it could serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of positive-sense single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a broad range of antiviral effects of ivermectin, however, clinical trials are necessary to appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical setting

The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral reproduction in vitro, but fails to work in vivo, for all of these viruses.  It's been tried against every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had some in vitro anti-viral activity, but never became an approved treatment for any of them.  

It must be that the elites are consipring.  That's the only reasonable explanation for the facts.

-- rec --

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za <mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za> > wrote:

Nick, 

Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.

I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,  https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid   , is most probably correct.

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better information? I'd like to know. 

References:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf

https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Pieter

Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

I believe this study is most probably correct. 

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better information? I'd like to know. 

References:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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