[FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

Sun Aug 15 15:11:42 EDT 2021

More reading

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3515378/

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021, 12:09 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> To the extent that many of our individual conditions often described as
> dis-ease are manifestations of a more
> spiritual-social-emotional-psychological dis-ease, it shouldn't surprise us
> that "woo" which addresses (at different levels, and different modes) the
> latter dis-ease might relieve the symptoms.
>
> I don't think many argue these days that animal immune responses are
> modulated significantly by the organism's level of stress, etc.   The term
> "Placebo" often gets a pretty negative connotation, yet I think most also
> accept that when it works, it works and one would not want to remove "the
> placebo effect" from someone's prevention, recovery or maintenance regimen.
>
> I am personally offended by the psuedoscientific presentation of lots of
> "woo", but I see how invoking lasers and vibrational energies and long
> concatenated latin names of compounds and concoctions can be very
> comforting to those whose only understanding of "Science" is that it has
> magical/mystical properties.
>
> This also, of course, allows the same people (or similar) to dismiss
> anything labeled "Science" as and elitist charade designed to bamboozle
> them into doing clearly dumb things like having "stuff" injected into them
> (like bleach or perhaps something with a mercury compound)?
>
> From Roger's due diligence, I am left to believe that Ivermectin has never
> been particularly validated for anything, though Nick's reference seems to
> imply it might be useful against parasites.  I understand
> Hydroxychloroquine to have been used widely in developing (equatorial)
> countries as an antiviral (in particular Malaria) but with widely varying
> and harsh side-effects which in those contexts might be well worth the
> risk.
>
> I'm interested to see the meta-narrative continue to evolve around
> Science and Pseudoscience or some variation of that.   It is easy do
> dismiss one and embrace the other, and on the surface, that is valid, but
> it feels to me as if there is something much deeper and more subtle and
> perhaps more broadly important going on, especially if we are nearing the
> twilight of the Anthropocene, going into a long-dark night of our own
> making *with* various parts Science and Pseudoscience?
>
>
> How about Reiki?
>
>
>
> Does Reiki Work? - The Atlantic
> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/reiki-cant-possibly-work-so-why-does-it/606808/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On
> Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:00 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> Oh, forgot to clearly identify the irony:   ;-)
>
>
>
> Doing diligence on this crap is way exhausting.  I am entirely in sympathy
> with your dilemma.
>
>
>
> Even if ivermectin does nothing useful, it still may be a useful treatment
> in situations where no other treatment is available.  And fabricating
> evidence of its efficacy would also be a comfort to the patients and the
> medical staff in that situation.   A placebo can be better than nothing, a
> placebo with a bogus story behind it can be even better.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:37 PM Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote:
>
> Pieter --
>
>
>
> I looked over the links you listed.
>
>
>
> They seem to claim that withdrawl of ivermectin caused the spike in Covid
> cases in India, and also that administering ivermectin caused the end of
> the spike in Covid cases.    Both of these claims are sort of hard to
> evaluate, since I don't see any evidence that anyone has ever distributed
> ivermectin/doxycycline/zinc kits very widely, either before or after the
> spike in infections.  Constructing and delivering kits for 1.366 billion
> people would have been quite an achievement for any economy.
>
>
>
> I followed the links to https://c19ivermectin.com/ and found the list of
> ivermectin studies.  The list presented currently claims 110 studies, 68
> peer reviewed, 64 involving control and treatment groups, but it's puffed
> up with another 50 entries which are news clippings, press releases,
> meta-analyses, reviews, and other miscellanea.
>
>
>
> I looked an early review article,
> https://www.nature.com/articles/s41429-020-0336-z.pdf, though the pdf is
> hosted at nature.com, it's from a different journal.
>
>
>
> The Journal of Antibiotics (2020) 73:593–602
> https://doi.org/10.1038/s41429-020-0336-z
> Ivermectin: a systematic review from antiviral effects to COVID-19
> complementary regimen Fatemeh Heidary1 ● Reza Gharebaghi2,3
> 1 Head of Ophthalmology Division, Taleghani Hospital, Ahvaz Jundishapur
> University of Medical Sciences, Ahvaz, Iran
> 2 Kish International Campus, University of Tehran, Tehran, Iran
> 3 International Virtual Ophthalmic Research Center (IVORC), Austin, TX, USA
> Abstract
> Ivermectin proposes many potentials effects to treat a range of diseases,
> with its antimicrobial, antiviral, and anti-cancer properties as a wonder
> drug. It is highly effective against many microorganisms including some
> viruses. In this comprehensive systematic review, antiviral effects of
> ivermectin are summarized including in vitro and in vivo studies over the
> past 50 years. Several studies reported antiviral effects of ivermectin on
> RNA viruses such as Zika, dengue, yellow fever, West Nile, Hendra,
> Newcastle, Venezuelan equine encephalitis, chikungunya, Semliki Forest,
> Sindbis, Avian influenza A, Porcine Reproductive and Respiratory Syndrome,
> Human immunodeficiency virus type 1, and severe acute respiratory syndrome
> coronavirus 2. Furthermore, there are some studies showing antiviral
> effects of ivermectin against DNA viruses such as Equine herpes type 1, BK
> polyomavirus, pseudorabies, porcine circovirus 2, and bovine herpesvirus 1.
> Ivermmust beectin plays a role in several biological mechanisms, therefore
> it could serve as a potential candidate in the treatment of a wide range of
> viruses including COVID-19 as well as other types of positive-sense
> single-stranded RNA viruses. In vivo studies of animal models revealed a
> broad range of antiviral effects of ivermectin, however, clinical trials
> are necessary to appraise the potential efficacy of ivermectin in clinical
> setting
>
>
>
> The quick read is that ivermectin interferes with viral reproduction *in
> vitro*, but fails to work *in vivo*, for all of these viruses.  It's been
> tried against every virus that's turned up in the last 50 years, had some *in
> vitro* anti-viral activity, but never became an approved treatment for
> any of them.
>
>
>
> It must be that the elites are consipring.  That's the only reasonable
> explanation for the facts.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 2:28 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
> pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> Thanks for pointing out that my message is not very clear. Let me rewrite
> it with a change in wording, I hope it's better this time.
>
> I believe that the study that Marcus referred to above ,
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid   ,
> is most probably correct.
>
> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
> do give benefits?
>
> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
> (see references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
> better information? I'd like to know.
>
> References:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>
>
>
> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>
>
> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>
>
>
>
> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>
>
>
>
> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
> Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope
>
>
>
> I believe this study is most probably correct.
>
> Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol,
> there are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean
> that there are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that
> do give benefits?
>
> I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some
> (see reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in
> India. I really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have
> better information? I'd like to know.
>
> References:
>
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
>
> https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
>
> https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
>
>
> https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
>
>
> https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/
>
>
>
> Pieter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
>
> https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
>
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