[FRIAM] "ZAMM"
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Fri Aug 20 18:46:15 EDT 2021
NST -
>
> You attempt to find ANYTHING of value in ZAMM is touching … no, I mean
> that.
>
it should be touching in the sense that it was your very earnestness
about the work and the questions it raises that forced (allowed?) me to
transcend my PTSD from my original reaction to it. Recognize, however,
that I *did* finish reading it in 197x, so it wasn't as if it offered me
nothing.
Recognize (also) that my reactions to it (early and late) represent as
much about me as about Pirsig, the work, and the context it was
developed and presented within.
> I still have not finished rereading the damn book so will hold off on
> that.
>
I hope our various observations on ZAMM does not wave you off, but
rather gives you some more semi-random mirrors in which to look at it as
you continue to engage-with/inspect it.
>
> On mysticism, what the hell is it?
>
I think that is a good question:
Let's begin with a dictionary definition:
mys·ti·cism
/ˈmistəˌsizəm/
Learn to pronounce
<https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk01SPXYMV-GzzvOjkrBOZIeJVLimrQ:1629491261362&q=how+to+pronounce+mysticism&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRozS3w8sc9YSmjSWtOXmPU4eINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLlYglJLcoV4pXi5uLMrSwuyUzOLM61YlFiSs3jWcQqlZFfrlCSr1AA1JQP1JWqAFcDABgZBrFdAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjy_K_-t8DyAhUNR_EDHT5jDiEQ3eEDMAB6BAgCEAc>
/noun/
1.
1.
belief that union with or absorption into the Deity or the
absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge
inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through
contemplation and self-surrender.
"St. Theresa's writings were part of the tradition of Christian
mysticism"
2.
2.
belief characterized by self-delusion or dreamy confusion of
thought, especially when based on the assumption of occult
qualities or mysterious agencies.
"there is a hint of New Age mysticism in the show's title"
I personally don't identify with *either* definition, though I recognize
an element of both in my own experience.
1. I suppose I would focus on "spiritual apprehension" which just kicks
the can down the road with "what means spiritual?" perhaps.
Spiritual vs Intellectual. With Emotional complicating the equation?
2. "self-delusion and dreamy confusion of thought" are certainly common
enough and an obvious risk of indulging-in/accepting mysticism.
> I see it as a kind of giving up on the intellectual project, a hugging
> of the question without any interest in the answer. I see those who
> talk about the “hard problem” as mystics, at least in sofar as they
> take pleasure in calling the problem “hard”.
>
I don't believe that allowing a mystical perspective implies entirely
"giving up on the intellectual project", but perhaps more importantly,
not allowing the need for (pat?) answers to force-fit whatever current
best-model one has at hand to the exclusion of looking for yet better
ones.
I suspect that what you think of as mysticism might be similar to what I
often have/do which is the throwing over of models developed through
more rational processes such as the scientific method for yet-others
pulled out of a dark/dank place. I do think that declining to
discuss/think-about interesting questions too easily "because mysticism"
is not a good thing, but I also believe that holding off and leaving a
few questions hanging for a while without nailing down answers is
powerful. Paraphrasing the Red Queen: "perhaps it is good to believe
six /mutually/ impossible things before breakfast some days".
> I am interested in Pirsig’s idea that all experience arises from an
> experience of quality. In the final years of my teaching and in those
> coffee house seminars I organized I operated on the assumption that
> one did not have standing to judge a text until one was thoroughly
> familiar with it. So when people arrived at a seminar saying that
> they had loved or hated it, I would try and postpone those discussions
> until we had examined the text closely. If the quality-experience is
> at the core off all experience, I was terribly wrong to do that. We
> needed to examine these quality-experiences FIRST and let them lead us
> to the text.
>
I don't know that it needs to be nor should be ordered. I would say my
"quality" judgements against ZAMM nearly 50 years ago precluded me from
becoming more familiar with the text. I certainly was expected to be
much more familiar with a given text (say in Literature, Poetry,
Anthropology) than that before I tried to "judge" it. My best language
arts (and fencing BTW) teacher was good at holding both up at the same
time. She would have us read things (sometimes out of class, sometimes
in class) and respond to them from our guts (hearts, souls, viscera,
gonads?) but then would inspect the texts more thoroughly as well and in
fact compare and contrast between our "reactions" and our "responses" as
it were. Pretty powerful stuff for an 18 year old. Did I mention I
fell in love with this teacher? She was in her mid 60s, but man could
she wield a fencing foil *as well as* literary images. I was just a
greenhorn punk and I'm sure I wasn't the first to give her that kind of
response. I lucked out with my Philosophy 101 professor as well. To
this day I can't really fault any of his handling of us... where "us"
included a modest contingent of Vietnam Vets who were 4-10 years older
than many of us and were carrying various forms of PTSD (mild unto
not-mild?)... he probably wasn't as "perfect" as I remember but that
probably just reflects my naivete at the time.
Your own experience AS one of those professors would seem to be
naturally complementary to my own. It seems like YOU might have been
one of my younger profs a the time (mid 70s?), though at a different
university in a different geopolitical region of the US.
Did you tell us when YOU read the book the first time (or is THIS your
first time)?
Also I am curious about your own experience with the technicalities of
maintaining any type of machinery... you don't seem exactly like a
gear-head but I suppose you could have been pulling the engine in a 1960
VW Bug in your dorm parking lot (onto a milk-crate, by hand, as was the
standard practice for many) for all I know.
Similarly, I am not clear on what engagement you may have had with
Eastern Philosophy/Spirituality along the way. Your style as I know you
seems to be very "Western" in a very "American" stylization or more
aptly perhaps "New England" stylization?
- SAS
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Friday, August 20, 2021 2:23 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"
>
>
>
> Nick -
>
> I think your observation here hits a head on a nail... it matters as
> much what our expectations are (the proto-model we have?) as the
> facts/data we fit to them?
>
> Certainly my two readings were *very* different, though neither was
> terribly positive (if that even matters?)
>
> As if to say *everything* is in the eyes of the beholder. Which is
> perhaps another way of saying "everything is subjective"? Which is
> NOT to say (I don't think) that there is or cannot be any objectivity
> in a matter (observation, ingestion of another's storytelling,
> etc.)... though in the sense that "context matters", objectivity
> it does seem fundamental that the cascade of implications of context
> is unbounded. I suppose this is the allure of Mathematics, that it
> is based in a (small) finite number of axioms. Ultimately, physics
> (and even moreso the more complex sciences) *must* assume a "spherical
> cow".
>
> Our (FriAM itself and the larger conversation in the first world?)
> recent hubbub about COVID and it's range of
> interventions/preventions/treatments and the roughly bimodal
> distribution of opinions/beliefs/actions seems to beg this question
> over and over again. Both extremes seem to devolve into a tautology
> in some sense.
>
> I don't know if this furthers/resurrects DaveW's thread of "the
> ineffable" in any way, but I keep returning here NOT because I want
> to believe the myriad anti-this-n-thats or conspiracy-styled beliefs
> but because when I try to understand what drives that kind of
> thinking, and by extension what differentiates it from my own (or more
> aptly, that which I aspire to or elevate when I see/hear it such as
> what both EricS and GlenR seem to manage most if not all the time).
> IN a typical-of-me tangent, I was just at my Feed Store and their
> display of Ivermectin jumped out at me... I knew of it as a
> horse-dewormer, but didn't connect it to the latest crackpot
> conspiracy that has lead (apparently) to several deaths (ingesting
> horse-dose/grade Ivermectin)..
>
> Back to Pirsig: IN 197x when I might have had a worn paperback copy
> of ZAMM in my back pocket, curled from leaving it there while riding
> my own motorcycle, I was looking furtively/askance for "elders" to
> look up to whilst being a bit too full of my own juice, thinking I
> didn't want to just become an acolyte to others, even if I didn't
> myself want to be a prophet (at least not in the sense of having
> followers). I was acutely disturbed by the main character's declared
> mental illness, his (Phaedrus') role as a teacher of writing who
> presumed to have a corner on "what means quality?"
>
> I was in college myself and while I was pleased to have a range of
> professors who had more going on than 99% of my small-town HS teachers
> had, I was also offended by their often self-declared status as
> "holders of the truth". While I'd signed up for as many
> Math/Physics courses as I could, the liberal-arts nature of the
> University seemed to think I'd do well to take a few courses like
> Philosophy, Creative Writing, Anthropology, and even Fencing. What I
> didn't factor in was how compelling those courses of study would turn
> out to be for me *in spite of* their obvious subjectivity. My
> math/physics profs got a pass from me on the "holders of truth" thing
> because at the introductory level, and the way math/physics *works*,
> there was little if *any* room for me to imagine I might know
> more/different than they did. The *really good* profs in the other
> disciplines really impressed me *because* they had to be thinking all
> the time, not only about their subject material but the responses from
> the class. A lot of our discussions/questions/feedback *was* trite
> and I am sure boring to them, but occasionally there would be spirited
> (and I believed fruitful) discussions that I *never* had in my (hard)
> science/math classes.
>
> Trying to dredge up something more positive to say and perhaps, more
> to the point, relevant to your specific experience with ZAMM, I found
> the "Gumption Trap" a fairly trite thing, BUT by pointing at the
> question of "Quality" I think it is a good place to spend some time.
> I look forward to the possibility that this diverse group (FriAM) of
> broad/deep thinkers will thrash this one at least one more time at
> your prompt.
>
> I do believe that Pirsig was the one who introduced me to the concept
> of "The Tao" at a deeper level than I had read/heard it before. I
> subsequently found Ray Smullyan's "The Tao is Silent" which was easier
> for me to swallow as he came with his Mathematician/Logician
> credentials and then the "I Ching" (Wilhelm-Baynes 1977 edition) which
> I eventually adopted as a ritual "Oracle" to joggle my
> brain/soul/heart a little now and then. I also think that despite my
> quarrels with Pirsig/Phaedrus (judgments of?) this work did soften me
> up and introduce me to the kinds of questions best considered from a
> Taoist perspective (thus the I Ching)?
>
> I am also much more comfortable with Mysticism as an approach to
> apprehending the world (not explaining, it, apprehending it) than I
> was "back then". I never liked the "there are no Athiests in
> Foxholes" but I do think that age and experience and perhaps most
> importantly awareness of mortality does increase one's appetite or
> receptiveness to "the mystical". Where I get hung up with
> Conspiracists and Woo Peddlers is that they mistake "a good question"
> for "an answer" and try to run with it as if there is actually a
> "thing" for them to try to carry across some imagined "finish line".
>
> mumble,
>
> - Sieve
>
>
>
> Dave,
>
> Not harsh at all, Dave. Just the kind of variation in reading
> that I was interested in. For you, apparently, the book was read
> for its possible insights into eastern thought, and for that
> purpose, it wasn’t anything special; I read it for its insights
> into philosophy generally, and for that rather more naïve purpose,
> it was more useful.
>
>
>
> I am trying to finish up my second reading. I am in Oregon
> reading about Gumption Traps. Do you remember gumption traps?
> The meme stuck in our family for years, long after we had almost
> forgotten the book itself.
>
>
>
> We are working on a possible cat three hurricane for Sunday, here,
> so I may go silent for a bit.
>
>
>
> Where is Roger C? I worry for those in peril on the seas.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com>
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Friday, August 20, 2021 11:17 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> my last response was kind harsh.
>
>
>
> Although, I see little value in Pirsig's books, I am very
> interested in the ideas or the inspirations you may have found in
> them, and would welcome a discussion of those things and perhaps
> the discovery of shared ideas/values/philosophies that are common
> even if derived from different roots.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 7:50 PM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> Like Steve, I was gravely disappointed in the book. I had been
> studying Eastern philosophies for nearly thirty years when it
> was published so one level of disappointment was the lack of
> anything new, even a new perspective.
>
>
>
> The whole mental illness / introspection / Phaedrus persona /
> son as mirror aspect elicited the same reaction as Steve -
> what indulgence.
>
>
>
> The book does echo some philosophical ideas — of which I doubt
> Pirsig was aware — with regard Kata: the correct way of doing
> things, of being, of interacting with the world. There is Kata
> in Zen. and that is why it is not the Ch'an Buddhism that was
> imported from China. I guess that Pirsig resonated with this
> element, and that informed his writing and his selection of title.
>
>
>
> The subtitle with regard 'values' has no grounding, as far as
> I can remember, in any aspect of Zen or other Eastern mystical
> philosophy.
>
>
>
> Hope others have more positive things to say, as it sounds
> like this book was valuable to you.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021, at 2:16 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Nick -
>
> I read it when it was fairly new and I was very young.
> The interwebs (I mean, whatever vapid popular culture rode
> on top of in those days) was aflutter and I was a
> voracious reader, a motorcycle owner/rider/maintainer, and
> I was enamored of the idea of eastern mysticism in spite
> of the harsh and distorting filters Western pop culture
> shoved it through before it could get to me. So of course
> i read it. And of course I was disappointed.
>
> I was hugely disappointed and annoyed by
> Pirsig/Phaedrus. I did not ride motorcycles for the
> reasons or in the way he did, nor did I maintain mine in
> his fashion nor did I hold it up in the way he did. Of
> course, Pirsig (and his character) were somewhat older
> than I was and had had more time in life to F* up... he
> just seemed like a self-indulgent F*-up to me, dragging
> his son through the worst of it along with him. I was
> also offended by all the hubub about the book... for the
> most part I "just didn't get it". It just seemed like
> more of our pop-culture's need to elevate a quite base
> neopatriarchy: (e.g. Hemingway, Kerouac, HS Thompson,
> Abbey, etc)
>
> When Mary moved here about 4 years ago, we (re)read ZAMM
> together. In the intervening years I had learned a lot
> more about mental illness including having direct
> experience with people who had endured a great deal of it,
> up to and including Electroshock Therapy. I had also
> grown out of my motorcycle riding identity (in my 50s) but
> still held onto fetishizing the spirit of something as
> simple and "easy" to maintain as a (classic) motorcycle
> (or auto). I had also read a lot more Greek (and other
> Western/Eastern) Philosophy in the intervening years and
> had my own ideas about "Quality" including Christopher
> Alexander's ineffable "Quality Without a Name".
>
> I appreciated ZAMM/Pirsig/Phaedrus a lot more the second
> time but still felt like it was somewhat self-indulgent.
> To the extent that I know of Pirsig's subsequent unfolding
> of a life (including his son's death) I felt more
> sympathetic to what I had judged as F*up. It also helps
> that I went on to F* up my own life repeatedly and
> sometimes even recursively (yet I am still here, being
> self-indulgent and judgemental).
>
> this was a nice obituary blog entry:
>
> https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/
> <https://douglastoft.com/robert-pirsig-on-coming-to-terms-with-the-death-of-his-son/>
>
> Another couple of (re) reads we did together were:
>
> Moby Dick
>
> A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich
>
>
>
> On 8/19/21 1:46 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dave:
>
>
>
> As usual, my [conscious] motives were not so high
> falutin’. As usual I am trying to get others to think
> with me because I cannot think alone. To the extent
> that I am a philosopher, it probably is because of
> that book and I am really interesting in the role it
> played in the lives of others. For instance, one
> friend told me that his response was to go out and buy
> a motor cycle. Also I am interested in what a second
> reading, 40 plus years would be like for each of you.
> It was quite a revelation to me. So, as general,
> you give my conscious mind too much credit. I can’t
> speak for the unconscious one.
>
>
>
> Stephen,
>
>
>
> If you mean, the original Greek figure, no I don’t.
> He’s briefly described somewhere in zamm as a sophist,
> but that’s already more than I know.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com>
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of
> *Stephen Guerin
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 19, 2021 3:26 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group <friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
>
>
> do you know Phaedrus?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 7:46 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I wonder if Pirsig’s /Zen and the Art of
> Motorcycle Maintenance /was a thing for any of
> you, and if you would be interested in pursuing a
> thread about it and, if so, if you would be
> willing to get it down off your shelf and flip
> through it, looking for the parts you loved and
> the parts you hated.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>
>
>
>
>
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