[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[thompnickson2 at gmail.com]

Sarbajit,

 

Are you familiar with CASTE <https://www.amazon.com/Caste-Origins-Discontents-Isabel-Wilkerson/dp/0593230256> ?  The book, not the institution.  No particular reason, except that if you were, it would provide us with a joint context.  

 

I am thinking that the closest equivalent to “untouchable” in our current American lingo is “essential.”  

 

I agree with you that the conversation is unpleasant, but disagree that it is avoidable.  

 

Is it your view that castes are the inevitable consequence of human association and that we should accept our privilege with grace and gratitude?   Or, …..?

 

Thank you for opening this door a crack. 

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Nick, 

it would be politically insensitive / incorrect for me to discuss America's blacks in the context of, say, white plantation owners, "field hands" and "house n**s" (not sure if I can use this word online nowadays) which parallel India's untouchables or Japan's  Burakumin /Eta societal structures.

Was it coincidence that the USA's most deadly COVID hotspots were unhygienic meat "packing" factories which employ mostly lower income blacks / browns who were compelled to either work or lose their meagre medical benefits ? 

Sarbajit

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:04 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Sarbajit, 

 

I am both fascinated and baffled by your note, and hope you will say more.  I am in the thrall of a book entitled CASTE which makes a parallel between the untouchables and American blacks.  So for you to associate high class with untouchability is disorienting.  I gather that the notion of Untouchables as a low caste includes a notion of Non-touchers as a high class?  I suppose it must, but I had never really thought about that.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

 

Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented. 

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563


Sarbajit Roy

New Delhi, India

 

 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com <mailto:gil.densmore at gmail.com> > wrote:

Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.

you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.

 

 

 

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.


On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> 
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
> 
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


--
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