[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Thu Aug 26 13:59:02 EDT 2021

In the spirit of multiple frequencies/scales or qualitative
dimensions/modes of aggregation:

What about the concern that habituating (and/or coercing) the entire
population of first-world (and much of third world) countries to
accepting (eagerly?) something which could credibly be as nefarious as
*another* pandemic or maybe a CRISPR-Cas9 edit?  

I'm not saying that *I* am acutely worried about this, but rather that
such a worry is not as absurd as it might sound.

Having hosted a conspiracy nut in my house for over a year, I'm at least
sensitive to the logic.   I don't, for example, worry that the
flouride/chlorine/bromine treatments used in "city water"  is part of a
nefarious plot for mass mind control by the illuminati.  But I *do*
acknowledge that if such a plot were afoot (by anyone) the drinking
water supply might be a good vector to spread such a thing very rapidly
(though these days, the bottled-water supply might penetrate
deeper/faster).  

So am I worried that *this* vaccine round is
sterilizing/mind-controlling/RFID-injecting people?  No.   But am I
worried that becoming habituated to one (or many) required vaccine
treatments on an annual (or seasonal?) opens a door to something
potentially *very* nefarious?  Yes.   How do we mitigate that? 

If you want to refuse this vaccine, great, just accept masking/isolation
in it's place and don't be surprised if when you have a car accident
that there are a finite number of beds in the ER/ICU set aside for
unvaccinated people which will likely be overwhelmed with people coming
in with acute COVID symptoms (since everyone else is either not
contracting COVID or not having severe symptoms)...

Can we acknowledge that "just because we are paranoid, that doesn't mean
nobody might be out to get us"?

- Steve

On 8/26/21 10:18 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review.   Because
> Tucker said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a
> justification.    One might be a concern about inflammation.    The
> vaccine will stimulate IGG-M production which could exacerbate some
> auto-immune conditions, and I have that auto-immune condition.    
>
>  
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
>  
>
>  
>
> Glen stated:/"Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."/
>
>  
>
> Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to
> stupidity in all cases without exception?
>
>  
>
> Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the
> prevailing rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them
> the stupid and Us the enlightened.
>
>  
>
> Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being
> anti-vax, for me personally?
>
>  
>
> [BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from
> getting vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a
> matter of coercion.]
>
>  
>
> davew
>
>  
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> > Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient 
>
> > or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test 
>
> > results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>
> > 
>
> > But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>
> > 
>
> > On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd
> have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can
> prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the
> local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the
> attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals,
> grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without
> evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it
> isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting
> physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no
> vaccination, no service.
>
> > > 
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
>
> > > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
>
> > > To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> > > 
>
> > > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is
> largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in
> unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's
> been vaccinated or not.
>
> > > 
>
> > > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever
> walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the
> change you suggest would require major legislative effort and,
> perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not
> gonna do that anytime soon.
>
> > > 
>
> > > Taking a look at this
> site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> <https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours>
>
> > > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I
> thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the
> surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating
> the problem.
>
> > > 
>
> > > 
>
> > > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > >> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get
> lost.  
>
> > >>
>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
>
> > >> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid
> patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are
> non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular
> people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments
> for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time"
> logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is
> demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer
> size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > >>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't
> let them in.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>
> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>
> > >>> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>
> > >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a
> normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for
> who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to
> submit to such tests.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they
> antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the
> fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the
> antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just
> the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes,
> irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out
> pretty comfortably.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our
> attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow
> beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily
> and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > >>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
>
> > 
>
> > 
>
> > -- 
>
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> > 
>
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>  
>
>
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