[FRIAM] Strawman/Steelman

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

Thanks....   I never encountered the proposal version in the context of
Ada directly, but in the general engineering culture.  

When I first realized that you were using Strawman in a very different
way than I was used to it, I definitely recognized that YOU were not
using it in an adversarial way, though I think you were often
acknowledging or proposing that others were.  

I think there is a nuance to the "Strawman Proposal" that differs from
"Skeleton" in that it is deliberately detuned, possibly deliberately
flawed to leave room for others to contribute.  

The difference perhaps between a pot of water on a fire with a large
nail in it and a pot of water on a fire with an onion?   The stone/nail
becomes a challenge for others to contribute substantially while the
onion carries more assumptions that might actually  suppress the
generous, collective  creativity that ensues from the parable. 

Once I got past the negative/defensive response to the idea that I might
be "putting forth a strawman" I benefited quickly from the alternative
conception complementing the "proposal" version.   And as you suggest,
mostly by applying it to my own thinking/ideas and by recognizing (more
often) if I might be accidentally strawmanning someone else. 

Infinite games all,

 - St3ve


On 1/28/21 2:02 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Interesting. Thanks. I used Ada for 5 years contracting (mostly for the Army) and never once heard any of these terms used that way. And I was part of the group that pitched new projects to our clients. I'm wondering if it simply fell out of use or if I was too holed up in my own little world. We did commonly use the phrases "skeleton" and "fleshing out".
>
> Also FWIW, the straw man fallacy is not solely an adversarial concept. You can straw man yourself. You can accidentally straw man someone. There are 3-way attempts at constructive ... what? ... trialog (?) where each party straw mans the others position on the way to a common ground. Etc.
>
> It's unfortunate that we focus on competitive, zero-sum, and adversarial senses of such things. But that need not be the case.
>
>
> On 1/28/21 12:30 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> Perhaps no-one cares or shares my confusion with the use
>> Strawman/Steelman championed by Glen and adopted by others, however:
>>
>>    consensus development:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_proposal
>>
>>    vs polemical debate:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>