[FRIAM] lurking
Marcus Daniels
marcus at snoutfarm.com
Tue Nov 2 11:36:59 EDT 2021
I really don’t get it. I appreciate the achievement of modern games with the professional artists, the physics engines, etc. but I just can’t imagine spending a minute of time on it. I know people that do, and it is bewildering to me what could possibly be wrong with them! Work for no reason.
> On Nov 2, 2021, at 8:10 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> Before the thread leaves games for consciousness ...
>
> A couple of years back, World of Warcraft passed the 1 billion player hour mark. That is just one game. A survey somewhere around that time claimed that self identified gamers averaged 30+ hours a week engaged in games. The low end of the curve was 20 hours a week (if you did not play that much, I guess you did not consider yourself a gamer) and the high end was well over 100 hours a week.
>
> The question of the day (then): why do people spend enjoy games so much more than real life and especially work life? There was a 'movement', under the umbrella label of "gamification" to apply ideas/principles supposedly gleamed from analysis of why games were so compelling and apply those ideas to education and work in specific, but also life in general.
>
> I have half-dozen or so books on this subject and will look them up if anyone is interested.
>
> davew
>
>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, at 8:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> My point was that the cost to probe some memory address is low. And
>> all there is, is I/O and memory.
>>
>> It does become difficult to track thousands of addresses at once:
>> Think of a debugger that has millions of watchpoints. However, one
>> could have diagnostics compiled in to the code to check invariants from
>> time to time. I don't know why Nick says there is no privilege.
>> There can be complete privilege. Extracting meaning from that access
>> is rarely easy, of course. Just as debugging any given problem can be
>> hard.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 3:20 PM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking
>>
>> Literal self-awareness is possible. The flaw in your argument is that
>> "self" is ambiguous in the way you're using it. It's not ambiguous in
>> the way me or Marcus intend it. You can see this nicely if you elide
>> "know" from your argument. We know nothing. The machine knows nothing.
>> Just don't use the word "know" or the concept it references. There
>> need not be a model involved, either, only sensors and things to be
>> sensed.
>>
>> Self-sensing means there is a feedback loop between the sensor and the
>> thing it senses. So, the sensor measures the sensed and the sensed
>> measures the sensor. That is self-awareness. There's no need for any of
>> the psychological hooha you often object to. There's no need for
>> privileged information *except* that there has to be a loop. If
>> anything is privileged, it's the causal loop.
>>
>> The real trick is composing multiple self-self loops into something
>> resembling what we call a conscious agent. We can get to the uncanny
>> valley with regular old self-sensing control theory and robotics.
>> Getting beyond the valley is difficult: https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE A
>> similar demonstration is here: https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 11/1/21 2:08 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>>> In fact, strictly speaking, I think literal self-awareness is impossible. Because, whatever a machine knows about itself, it is a MODEL of itself based on well situated sensors of its own activities, just like you are and I am. There is no privileged access, just bettah or wussah access.
>>
>> --
>> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>>
>>
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