[FRIAM] The Possibility of Self Knowledgke
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Mon Nov 8 13:16:35 EST 2021
Nick -
I was contemplating this very question this morning in an entirely
different context, though I am sure my lurking on these threads has
informed my thinking as well.
It seems to me that the question of "self" is central as
suggested/asserted by Glen (constantly?) and my current apprehension of
a more better notion of self involves the superposition of what most of
us would consider an extended self. Extended in many dimensions, and
with no bound other than a practical one of how expansive our
apprehension can be. We are not just the "self" that we have become
over a lifetime of experiences, but the "self" that exists as standing
wave in our geospatial embedding (a flux of molecules flowing through
us, becoming us, being shed from us, etc), our entire filial relations
with other organisms (our pets, domesticates, food-sources, scavengers
of our food, etc, as well as our microbiome, up to perhaps macroscopic
parasites such as worms and lice we may harbor). We are also the sum
of our social relations and affiliations with other humans and their
constructs (Democrat party, Proud Boys, Professional Poker League of
America, etc). We are in relation to objects and creatures and other
sentients which we are not at all (or only barely aware of)... we are
products of growing up in, or living in currently a landscape, a
cityscape, etc.)
I know this is somewhat oblique/tangential/orthogonal to the point you
are making, but I nevertheless felt compelled to make it here as it
schmears the question of self-knowledge in a (I believe) significant way.
- Steve
On 11/7/21 10:33 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> Eric inter alia,
>
> The position I have taken concerning self knowledge is that all
> knowledge is of the form of inferences made from evidence. To the
> extent that some sources of knowledge may lead to better inferences--
> may better prepare the organism for what follows-- some may be more
> privileged than others, but that privilege needs to be demonstrated.
> Being in the same body as the knowing system does not grant the
> knowing system any */a priori/* privilege. If you have followed me so
> far, then a self-knowing system is using sensors to infer (fallibly)
> the state of itself. So if Glen and Marcus concede that this is the
> only knowledge we ever get about anything, than I will eagerly concede
> that this is “self-knowledge”. It’s only if you claim that
> self-knowing is of a different character than other-knowing, that we
> need to bicker further. I stipulate that my point is trivial, but not
> that it’s false.
>
> I have cc’d bits of the thread in below in case you all have
> forgotten. I could not find any contribution from Eric in this
> subject within the thread, although he did have something to say about
> poker, hence I am rethreading.
>
> Nick .
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> 18
>
>
> uǝlƃ ☤>$via
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en> redfish.com
>
>
>
> Nov 1, 2021, 4:20 PM (6 days ago)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> to friam
>
> Literal self-awareness is possible. The flaw in your argument is that
> "self" is ambiguous in the way you're using it. It's not ambiguous in
> the way me or Marcus intend it. You can see this nicely if you elide
> "know" from your argument. We know nothing. The machine knows
> nothing. Just don't use the word "know" or the concept it references.
> There need not be a model involved, either, only sensors and things to
> be sensed.
>
> Self-sensing means there is a feedback loop between the sensor and the
> thing it senses. So, the sensor measures the sensed and the sensed
> measures the sensor. That is self-awareness. There's no need for any
> of the psychological hooha you often object to. There's no need for
> privileged information *except* that there has to be a loop. If
> anything is privileged, it's the causal loop.
>
> The real trick is composing multiple self-self loops into something
> resembling what we call a conscious agent. We can get to the uncanny
> valley with regular old self-sensing control theory and robotics.
> Getting beyond the valley is difficult: https://youtu.be/D8_VmWWRJgE A
> similar demonstration is here: https://youtu.be/7ncDPoa_n-8
>
> Attachments area
>
> Preview YouTube video Realistic and Interactive Robot
> Gaze<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8_VmWWRJgE&authuser=0>
>
> Preview YouTube video Mark Tilden explaining Walkman (VBug1.5) at the
> 1995 BEAM Robot
> Games<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0>
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncDPoa_n-8&authuser=0>
>
>
> Marcus Danielsvia
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en> redfish.com
>
>
>
> Nov 2, 2021, 8:37 AM (5 days ago)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> to The
>
> My point was that the cost to probe some memory address is low. And
> all there is, is I/O and memory.
>
> It does become difficult to track thousands of addresses at once:
> Think of a debugger that has millions of watchpoints. However, one
> could have diagnostics compiled in to the code to check invariants
> from time to time. I don't know why Nick says there is no
> privilege. There can be complete privilege. Extracting meaning
> from that access is rarely easy, of course. Just as debugging any
> given problem can be hard.
>
>
> uǝlƃ ☤>$via
> <https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en> redfish.com
>
>
>
> Nov 2, 2021, 9:06 AM (5 days ago)
>
>
>
>
> to friam
>
> Well, I could be wrong. But both Nick and EricC seem to argue there's
> no privilege "in the limit" ... i.e. with infeasibly extensible
> resources, perfect observability, etc. It's just a reactionary
> position against those who believe in souls or a cartesian cut. Ignore
> it. >8^D
>
> But I don't think there can be *complete* privilege. Every time we
> think we come up with a way to keep the black hats out, they either
> find a way in ... or find a way to infer what's happening like with
> power or audio profiles.
>
> I don't think anyone's arguing that peeks are expensive. The argument
> centers around the impact of that peek, how it's used. Your idea of
> compiling in diagnostics would submit to Nick's allegation of a
> *model*. I would argue we need even lower level self-organization. I
> vacillate between thinking digital computers could [not] be conscious
> because of this argument; the feedback loops may have to be very close
> to the metal, like fpga close. Maybe consciousness has to be analog in
> order to realize meta-programming at all scales?
>
>
>
>
>
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