[FRIAM] lurking

Mon Nov 8 18:31:50 EST 2021

On 11/8/21 10:24 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> In this argument of what is and what is not conscious, the key issue for me always is what the hell are we trying to preserve for humans uniquely and why.  Are slaves conscious?  Are cows conscious? Are lobsters conscious?  Are embryos conscious?  Are plants conscious?   Only when we clearly see our interest in the answer, can we begin to consider the question rationally.

My interest/stake in consciousness involves recognizing that *I* 
do/experience/have/am something I call consciousness (a combination of 
awareness, agency, self-awareness, etc), I see behaviour in other humans 
which seems like the same thing.  I operate *as if* others' 
conciousness-appearing behaviour IS the same thing.  I also see such 
behaviour (to a lesser degree/qualitatively?) in animals, with the most 
familiar (say dogs) the strongest and large mammals (bears, elephants, 
cetaceans) not far behind, and those far from me in 
familiarity/self-image (microbes, weird insects, weird vertebrates, 
etc.) seeming *less conscious*.

En complement to this, I recently picked up Peter Godfrey-Kress' Other 
Minds 
<https://www.amazon.com/Other-Minds-Octopus-Origins-Consciousness/dp/0374537194/ref=asc_df_0374537194/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312057593249&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3017644539488572053&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9030505&hvtargid=pla-404205711058&psc=1> 
because of my fascination with the invertebrate molluscular *apparent* 
conscoiusness observed in many Krakii.

What I'm truly more interested in is what I can only refer to as 
"Collective Emergent Consciousness".   If we attribute the basic nature 
of life to be rooted in "sensing and acting" with an implicit goal of 
surviving/thriving *in the world*.  To this end I assume that living 
entities have *some* kind of internal model of the external world which 
facilitates this.   Roughly "agency"?      Eusocial creatures have a 
rudimentary form of "Collective Consciousness" by my 
definition/measure.  To the extent that humans (in families, in 
villages, in societies, in nation states, in global 
culture/civilization) have collective interests and activities, I see 
that as the basis for an emerging *consciousness*.

I am NOT as NST suggests seeking to reserve "consciousness" for humans 
(individual or collective) but rather trying to understand what it might 
be en-expansion/abstraction and whether it promises (offers?) to provide 
some of the kind of self-correction for our collective human action that 
we come to expect of it in the individual.   I'm seeking it as an 
alternative to the homeostatic feedback loops we (collectively) 
experienced in earlier states of our evolution where geography, 
forest/savannah, predator/prey/competing species all helped to keep us 
both in check and vital.   It feels we are already running "open loop" 
in many ways.

To that end I am considering what "emergent collective" properties 
populations on the cusp of finding new modes (eg. becoming eusocial) 
might experience and wondering if we can *recognize) much less cultivate 
those properties.

Fumble,

  -Steve

>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam<friam-bounces at redfish.com>  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 9:23 AM
> To:friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] lurking
>
> Thanks, Steve. A reminder the movie event is this Thursday:https://watch.eventive.org/aware/play/615f2c9cfb31210037ecade7
>
> And although these may be overvalued, they and ones like them are finally showing some progress:
>
> https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CMPS?p=CMPS&.tsrc=fin-srch
> https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MNMD?p=MNMD&.tsrc=fin-srch
>
> The argument surrounding plant awareness and expression is interesting. It makes sense to me to argue that if plants are "sentient" in any operable sense, their communication and self-sensing would occur at the molecular scale, perhaps going outward a bit to tissue and inward a bit to coherence. (Interesting, if a bit romantic, essay here:https://quantumfrontiers.com/2021/11/07/entangled-fields-and-post-anthropocene-computation-quantum-perspectives-for-a-healthy-planet/) But my guess is most of the larger scale sounds plants generate are non-sentient acoustic emission, like your motor clicking after you shut it off. But who knows, vibration may be similar to "force-based" treatments like physical therapy or massage ... or even acupressure. Just because acupuncture seems like pure pseudoscience, other force-based therapy, including vibration-based may have finer grained impact than we can currently account for (e.g.https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/physics-and-astronomy/ultrasonic-cavitation). Heliotropism is also a thing, I guess.
>
>
> On 11/1/21 1:37 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> I found this article on consciousness interestingly broadening of my own view of it:
>>
>> https://www.geekwire.com/2021/neuroscientist-recounts-long-strange-tri
>> p-plumb-depths-consciousness/
>>
> --
> "Better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie."
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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