[FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

[thompnickson2 at gmail.com]

Hmmm!  I sort of see your point.  But notice that we have to get around the most fundamental notion of causality, that an effect occurs after its cause and cannot therefore be a cause of the cause that caused it.  We probably get around that by stipulating that we are dealing with recursive systems, feed back systems in which the effects may act back on the cause of the things that caused those effects.   Now, once we have stipulated THAT, we show an interest in discriminating those that do feed back in that manner from  those that don't.  The latter are epiphenomena.  You may of course insist that all causal relations are loopy, and therefore, no phenomenon is epi-.  In which case, I would insist that there is some value in discriminating between those systems that are more loopy and those that are less loopy.  

Could we agree on that little step?

N  

Nick Thompson
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2021 4:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation

As always, I'd argue that such things don't exist. There are no structures (or behaviors) with consequences that played no part in their development. So, as a counterfactual hypothetical, it could be fun to play such a game. But the burden is on the game master to persuade us why it might be a fun game. It looks useless or worse, encouraging of false belief, to me.


On November 25, 2021 10:39:18 PM PST, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> We
>will argue for a definition of an epiphenomenon as a consequence of a 
>structure's (or behavior's) design which has played no part the 
>development of that structure (or behavior).
--
glen ⛧


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