[FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Mon Nov 29 11:52:09 EST 2021
All of this discussion seems to be framed conveniently (for CS/modeling
types) as Sequential Dynamical Systems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_dynamical_system
On 11/28/21 8:49 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Can’t the delay be in arbitrarily-small discretized units (e.g.
> picoseconds) if needed?
>
>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> By the way an example of a cycle with no delay, unless time isn't
>> continuous, is a pair of ladders leaning against each other so that
>> neither falls. That violates assumptions of our causal discovery
>> algorithms.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:57 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> An element of a (very short) cycle. Note that there has to be a
>> delay.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:44 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Frank,
>>
>> In your lingo, what is an effect called that feeds back on
>> its cause?
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of
>> *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>
>> Yes, for example.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:06 PM Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>
>> I guess you mean A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2), not
>> B(t=1)->A(t=0)
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of
>> *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:46 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>
>> I did a number of experiments in the use of causal
>> learning methods to infer genetic regulatory networks
>> using actual and simulated data. Those networks have
>> loops of a variety of lengths. References available upon
>> request.
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>
>> I just don't see how that is a "loop" except that
>> repeated application of such a matrix could lead to
>> oscillation. It sounded like somehow causality was
>> violated and not just obscured.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of
>> ? glen
>> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
>> Group <friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
>>
>> Right, high dimension. More important than the matrix
>> being large is that it has non-zero cross terms.
>>
>> On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST, Marcus Daniels
>> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>> >The operators are large (in the sense of a matrix)
>> whether or not they are intended to be?
>> >
>> >> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20 AM, ⛧ glen
>> <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Any of the evolutionary operators across scales,
>> from energy exchange at the finest to ecosystem
>> reengineering at the coarsest.
>> >>
>> >>> On November 27, 2021 7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus
>> Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>> >>> I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have
>> no idea what these loops are or what you might be
>> talking about.
>> >>>
>> --
>> glen ⛧
>>
>>
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