[FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
⛧ glen
gepropella at gmail.com
Thu Apr 28 20:54:42 EDT 2022
Unless the psycho's lesson simulates a counter freak-out. Then we'd have to know they were a psycho just simulating in order to record it properly. Because ideal psychos are so rare, I maintain that counter freak-outs work better to regulate freak-outs than cold-blooded punitive reactions do. My dad claiming 'this will hurt me more than you' prior to an ass whooping was far less helpful to me than when my freak-out (seemingly) pushed him into his own freak-out.
To boot, cold-bloodedness is a passive aggressive form of toxic masculinity. I was taught that stoicism is manly and emotion (especially flooding) is a weak, womanly thing. (We even have a special word for it: hysterical.) It's complete bullshit. Men have just as much freak-outery as women, if not more. And to argue for suppression carries a vaguely misogynist tint. In fact, one of the freak-out types I exhibited as a kid was to cry, which invariably incensed my dad into a macho counter freak-out yelling 'I'll give you something to cry about!' followed by an extended beating.
On April 28, 2022 4:39:09 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>I think Glen's equivocation is revealing. It is fine in this view to have the loud, badgering, self-indulgent feelers take energy away from the dead-eyed psychopaths, but the reverse can happen quietly in the way Steve just said. At least if the dead-eyed psychopaths make an example of the feelers, then we know something happened -- they haven't been victimized in a way that is not recorded.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
>Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 4:00 PM
>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>
>Steve writes:
>
>"I have had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away feeling like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking out, *I* was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out to my benefit."
>
>That's the normal course of events. I have this idea there should be a ceremony to address it because *merely* exploiting it leaves a stone unturned.
>
>Marcus
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
>Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 3:57 PM
>To: friam at redfish.com
>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>
>My own self-analysis around this is that when I *do* find myself in a Freak-Out, that there is a meta-level strategy in play... that the Freak-Out represents adding heat in the annealing sense to break out of a local minima, and/or "tunneling" for the same reason... ignoring my manners/politeness within a limited space-time context to solve a problem that the full-dimensional trajectories simply didn't allow for: "you cant get there from here". Thus the pursuit for varied "altered states" including what I think Glen is describing broadly as "Freak-Out"... lowered inhibitions, etc.
>
>
>FWIW I was raised in a very stoic family in a generally stoic subculture and I still hold lots of judgement about Freak-Outs, covering the range of examples and counter-examples both of you (Glen and Marcus) have described. I have had moments in my life when faced with other's Freak-Outs came away feeling like I might be a closet sociopath because while *they* were freaking out, *I* was calculating my next move with them to manipulate their Freak-Out to my benefit. For the most part, I found I had some kind of ethical center that saw that as "wrong" and avoided acting on it,. And yet I still practiced it in my mind, maybe preparing for the day when someone's Freak-Out was so threatening to my life/livelihood that I could justify that manipulation? I cringed a little when Glen described control-in-the-face-of-Freak-Out as being a
>(necessary/useful?) tool, because that cuts too close to the quick of my mistrust of my own inner Sociopath.
>
>
>On 4/28/22 4:12 PM, glen wrote:
>> I like everything about that layout except the "outside the
>> abilities". I think those of us who "lose it" actually want to lose it
>> ... or enjoy losing it ... like dancing at a rave at the DJs crecendo.
>> Some part of them knows it's unproductive. And they don't have to be
>> all that sociopathic, ignoring the feelings of those around them or
>> being all that ignorant of their trajectory towards freak-out. They
>> just *want* the freak-out. It feels good.
>>
>> The trick is that some of us have manners and try to adapt to context
>> and others don't ... or simply don't have the willingness to classify
>> contexts and match them with different manners/modes. The right
>> wingers who go on and on about "wokeness" are this way. They simply
>> don't *want* to exhibit good manners. The same might be true of a
>> freaking out antifa shouting at a nazi.
>>
>> It's all about wants and (physiological) reward. What are they getting
>> from their chosen behavior? If they wanted to calm down, they would.
>>
>> On 4/28/22 15:03, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> My reasoning goes like this. 1) I know there is a difference between
>>> the things I feel and the behaviors I have that could reveal them.
>>> It is not a perfectly controlled thing, of course, but I have a
>>> degree of control. This control leads to some control of the
>>> feelings themselves. As you say, one can whip themselves up, but
>>> one can also calm themselves. 2) I would never pull one of these
>>> vehicular stunts unless it was a theatrical motivation for a third
>>> party to observe or I was artificially influenced by a high dose of
>>> testosterone, adrenaline, meth, etc. A common situation like low
>>> blood sugar or high caffeine wouldn't be enough. I just wouldn't
>>> even think about it if someone flipped me off. I might feel bad if
>>> I thought I had made a mistake and deserved criticism/shaming, but I
>>> wouldn't then thrust my car in front of another leading to who knows
>>> what outcome for no reason at all.
>>>
>>> I don't think thresholding is the right way to model it. It is more
>>> like can one estimate how cool or agitated they are and modulate the
>>> situations to avoid unproductive conflict. Some people I have found
>>> can't recognize their own degree of agitation. The flooding is going
>>> outside the abilities of the control system.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:44 PM
>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>>>
>>> Well, I purposefully chose to use sociopathy in this example to
>>> indicate the complete competency spectrum. A flood-prone sociopath
>>> *needs* to get good at suppressing their freak-outs. A psychopath
>>> doesn't need to suppress anything. There's no such thing as an ideal
>>> psychopath, of course. We're all a little psycho to some extent.
>>>
>>> But if you're asserting there's a difference between freak-out
>>> behavior and a freaked-out mental state, then we might expect the
>>> monists to come flying out of the woodwork with their loops on
>>> repeat. It's a social skill, a competence, to be able to *whip*
>>> oneself up into a state of enthusiasm ... or even a state of Flow.
>>> When you enter the MMA ring, you don't calm yourself, meditate, and
>>> relax. You whip yourself into a [controlled] freak-out. Explosive
>>> athletics require freaked-out mentality *and* often quite a bit of
>>> bit of freak-out behavior.
>>>
>>> This conception of flooding and freaking out as some sort of
>>> over-the-threshhold loss of control is idealistic nonsense. That's
>>> the heart of my claim that freak-outs aren't the problem.
>>>
>>> On 4/28/22 14:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>> Sure, it depends whether we define a state-of-mind as the freak out,
>>>> or the observed behavior of the freak out. The former could
>>>> happen, and no one would know. And I think you are confusing
>>>> sociopathy with psychopathy in this example.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 2:24 PM
>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>>>>
>>>> But by keeping it together, you *weaken* your plausible deniability.
>>>> Keeping it together would give the prosecutor the ammunition to
>>>> accuse you of [pre]mediated murder (with [pre] in brackets because
>>>> it's not technically pre-mediated murder). The more cold-blooded you
>>>> are, the more likely we'll interpret your killing as cold-blooded
>>>> murder.
>>>>
>>>> So a competent sociopath gets good at *simulating* freak-outs.
>>>> Again, the freak-out isn't the problem, here. Freaking out is a tool
>>>> just like any other. And it's rational and intelligent to use the
>>>> tool deliberately.
>>>>
>>>> On 4/28/22 14:17, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>> Just to clarify, I wouldn't shoot the guy because I was emotional.
>>>>> He was the one that experienced the freak out. In some potential
>>>>> circumstance, I would potentially do it for protection of my
>>>>> passenger, and to a lesser extent as a sort of public service,
>>>>> because the opportunity was given to me in the context of
>>>>> (plausible) self-defense. The subtler reason that excuse would be
>>>>> appealing would be due to the basic injustice that I was basically
>>>>> keeping it together and he was not, and keeping it together is
>>>>> work. So why should I take on the burden for adapting to lazy
>>>>> people? Just because I can? If we go around making special
>>>>> accommodations for people that don't try to keep it together, one
>>>>> can expect a lot more of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:49 PM
>>>>> To: friam at redfish.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, OK. So we can partition freak-outs into (at least) 2 types:
>>>>> angry vs joyous ... or whatever other false binary you choose (pro-
>>>>> vs anti-social perhaps). Then we argue for suppression of one but
>>>>> not suppression of the other? Pffft. That doesn't work. E.g.
>>>>> https://youtu.be/etK7e7iBJVQ You'd just end up living in a world of
>>>>> dead-eyed automatons.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you seem to be targeting, here, is *material* cause. Those of
>>>>> us who tend to flood more than others need less access to powerful
>>>>> tools like cars and guns. Again, it's not the freak-out that's the
>>>>> problem. It's the network in which the freak-out exists.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/28/22 13:40, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>> It's not about the manners, it's about learning to distance from
>>>>>> discomfort. Like continuing to press a climb up a hill on a
>>>>>> bicycle while the lactic acid burns your legs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Spend some time around someone with borderline personality
>>>>>> disorder for a while, you will change your mind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Road rage is a common example. The other day there was a bicycle
>>>>>> that I was approaching who wasn't going very fast, even for a
>>>>>> bicyclist. She did have every right to be there, and so I was
>>>>>> also going slow to wait for her to get around a parked car before
>>>>>> I passed. Meanwhile, some lunatic comes up behind us laying on
>>>>>> his horn, oscillating from the left side of the lane to the right
>>>>>> trying to find a way around. Because he went so far right, there
>>>>>> was no way he couldn't see the bicyclist. I don't have a lot of
>>>>>> patience for this kind of behavior, so I indicated my displeasure
>>>>>> with a middle finger. This individual then roars in front of us
>>>>>> both and puts his car horizontally in front of mine. He gets out
>>>>>> and starts banging on my window to get his "catharsis". Had I
>>>>>> determined he was an actual threat to us, I might have pushed his
>>>>>> car out the way with mine (which was much larger), or had I a
>>>>>> weapon, shot him. F*ck his catharsis, he can share the minor
>>>>>> frustration of daily life with the rest of us, and in silence
>>>>>> please. There is no benefit in his freak out, it was basically a
>>>>>> criminal act as far as I was concerned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are situations which a rant is truly righteous, but I have
>>>>>> found mostly no one cares about that. Usually this discovery
>>>>>> comes at some personal or professional cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2022 1:20 PM
>>>>>> To: friam at redfish.co
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A million year old driving assistant
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "This is your last free article." [baaaaahhhhhhhh] Now what am I
>>>>>> gonna read this weekend!?!? Damn you! [stomp][stomp][stomp]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, I disagree completely with the point being made, there.
>>>>>> The freak-out improves relationships and rationality, smooths over
>>>>>> difficulties in the real world, and has all sorts of
>>>>>> narrative-breaking, cathartic benefits. In the same way that
>>>>>> convictions to ideologies foster conservatism and hamper progress,
>>>>>> the suppression of one's freak-outs amounts to rejecting a large
>>>>>> array of measures and indicators one might ordinarily use to
>>>>>> understand the world. The problem isn't the freak-out. The problem
>>>>>> is a lack of tolerance *for* freak-outs. It's the repressed
>>>>>> Victorians running around complaining about the lack of manners
>>>>>> and decorum around them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please. Don't repress your freak-outs. We're tough. We can
>>>>>> withstand your freak-out and use it to better plan for the future.
>>>>>> The last thing we need is to turn into a bunch of dead-affect
>>>>>> emotionless, freak-out-free psychopaths. Where would stand-up
>>>>>> comedy be without freak-outs? Where would we get our qualia-laden
>>>>>> *rants* from? What even is laughing if *not* a kind of freak-out?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't had the giggles in decades. But for some reason, a group
>>>>>> of us were eating lunch a few weeks ago. Someone told a joke.
>>>>>> Another someone kept laughing. I mean, even after the topic had
>>>>>> changed and everyone'd moved on. This dude kept laughing. I tried
>>>>>> to take a sip of beer and I ended up snorting it ... just because
>>>>>> that other dude kept laughing. I'm allergic to barley. So when I
>>>>>> snort beer it seriously messes me up for about an hour or 2.
>>>>>> Fvcking laughing. Stupid freak-out. I should have suppressed it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/28/22 12:53, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>> “Emotional flooding might have helped your Pleistocene ancestors
>>>>>>> survive, but it is maladapted to most modern interactions.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage-
>>>>>>> em
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> t
>>>>>>> ions-and-reactions/629692/
>>>>>>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2022/04/how-to-manage
>>>>>>> -e
>>>>>>> m
>>>>>>> o
>>>>>>> tions-and-reactions/629692/>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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glen ⛧
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