[FRIAM] Patriotic Millionaires

[Frank Wimberly]

Do any tax return forms have an item that says, "Gift to the US Treasury"?
It might work.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 2:10 PM Eric Charles <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Glen,
> Intentional, but not distortion.
>
> If they were advocating more funding to cancer research, then just as you
> suggest we would want to see if they also gave philanthropically to support
> cancer research.  If they were advocating more funding to the arts, then we
> would want to see what they gave to the arts (e.g., my Kennedy Center)
> example. Many rich people behave in exactly this way; I've seen tons of
> rich people over the years running those sorts of messages to good effect.
>
> The parallel in this situation: If they were advocating more of their
> money be taken in taxes and put into the federal general fund, we would
> want evidence that they were voluntarily paying more taxes than they owe.
> Preferably, we would want to see something in line with whatever tax
> policies they are advocating be applied to people of their wealth level,
> but I'd be happy with any sizable payment over what they currently owe
> under current IRS code.
>
> Can we find evidence of a single one of them even claiming to have done
> that? Not hard evidence that they did so, even just a claim to have done
> so. Has anyone on here seen such a claim?
>
> I obviously haven't done an exhaustive search, but I've been tracking rich
> people talking about this individually or in groups for probably three
> decades now, and I've never seen anyone openly claim to have volentarily
> paid the amount of taxes they would owe under the system they claim to want
> applied to them by force. I've never even seen someone talk about how the
> movement inspired them to pay *any *general taxes over what they owe
> within the current system. It is pretty weird to publicly announce that you
> are only willing to do the something you claim is morally right if you are
> forced to do so by legislation. In what other context do we ever see those
> kinds of statements?
> <echarles at american.edu>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 1:04 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's not clear to me if EricC is accidentally or purposefully distorting
>> the message. In order for us to accuse the participants in Patriotic
>> Millionaires (PM) of *not* supporting any given cause, we'd need to look at
>> their individual philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and
>> messaging of PM is inadequate.
>>
>> E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a "value", and we
>> examine the donations of all the PM participants and found that either a)
>> they don't donate any of their money at all or b) they donate to everything
>> except the values of the PM, *then* EricC's rhetoric would have some
>> traction.
>>
>> Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be, identical to
>> what its members advocate.
>>
>> I've done none of that work of comparing PM's advocacy/lobbying and its
>> participants' actions. Perhaps others have?
>>
>> On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote:
>> > Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money to the government if
>> the
>> > point is that you think the government should have it.  ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
>> >
>> > <echarles at american.edu>
>> > A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to Wikipedia. 4 years of
>> college
>> > education is cheaper than that at most institutions. *Any *millionaire
>> > could just cover one of those, if they thought that was the best use of
>> > their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of them, and still have a
>> > significantly higher net worth than the median American under 40. We
>> need
>> > to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has several million, they could
>> > cover a whole lot more and still be doing just fine.
>> >
>> > "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a morally crucial
>> > activity and that those who have an obligation to support it should do
>> > so... But I won't help with that unless I know a legislature is forcing
>> > lots of other people to help kids go to college!" Well.... ok.... but
>> > that's a pretty shitty position to take.
>> >
>> > Maybe you think it's so important that you want to help yourself, and
>> you *also
>> > *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I don't like that
>> > position, but it is sensible, and you can morally ground it in all
>> sorts of
>> > ways. But no level of moral importance should exist as a category where
>> you
>> > won't help unless everyone else is forced to as well. Yes, people take
>> that
>> > position all the time. But it is a morally shitty position, and we
>> should
>> > treat it that way.
>> >
>> > Phrased differently: Having the government pick up the slack when
>> > individual action is insufficient can often make sense. Claiming that
>> only
>> > government action should happen, and then acting as if that claim
>> somehow
>> > relieves individuals from any obligation to live up to their purported
>> > moral values, is crap.
>> >
>> > If you think it is important to support local kids getting a college
>> > education, then step up. You are in absolutely no sense "a bum" or "a
>> > sucker" if you help someone afford a college education and your neighbor
>> > doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at all. The correct
>> > response to someone trying to act that way is to try to force them to
>> admit
>> > the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen not to support
>> whatever
>> > the cause is that is in question.
>> >
>> > Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and adding on top of their
>> > individual support a statement that they also think others should do
>> more,
>> > that's a much more defendable position. Statements like "I think the
>> arts
>> > should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX to The Kennedy
>> Center,
>> > while lobbying my federal congressperson for more tax support" is
>> perfectly
>> > reasonable, as is "I think we need to better support local kids going to
>> > college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid scholarships this
>> local
>> > high school graduates, while also talking with my state congressperson
>> > about upping state funding to state schools."
>> >
>> > Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask them how much more
>> they
>> > paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that you would find $0 as
>> > the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across the board, certainly
>> the
>> > median will be $0.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four year college
>> scholarship
>> >> or a Javelin missile launcher.  The millionaire might be able to pay
>> those
>> >> individually, but no one else.  In that situation there is no sales
>> for the
>> >> individual girl scouts to perform.  At best a few heroic medium-sized
>> >> donations.
>> >>
>> >> Some purchases will be out of reach without spreading the cost around,
>> >> even over thousands of millionaires.
>> >>
>> >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles <
>> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 
>> >> Marcus,
>> >> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always talking about wanting to
>> >> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so far as to set up a web
>> page
>> >> about how important it is to support the girl scouts, and pays to have
>> >> signs printed and distributed around town about how important it is to
>> >> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the girl scouts, so you send
>> her
>> >> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The neighbor takes a look
>> at
>> >> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do *think I should support
>> girl
>> >> scouts, I am not going to give you any money unless everyone else in
>> the
>> >> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too. Don't ask me to be a
>> chump."
>> >>
>> >> What would we make of that?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> <echarles at american.edu>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few months talking about their
>> >>> efforts to review content for fake news.   They advocated government
>> >>> regulation.   Commonality being that a taxation or regulation impacts
>> them
>> >>> and their competitors in the same way, so their effective power and
>> >>> influence won’t be negatively impacted.   “Don’t ask me to be a
>> chump.”
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles <
>> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> Frank,
>> >>> That all seems 100% positive to me.
>> >>>
>> >>> Do you also routinely publicly complain about how legislatures are
>> lax in
>> >>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of thing, because you strongly
>> >>> think that you should do more, but are unwilling to without the
>> government
>> >>> forcing you to?
>> >>>
>> >>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are doing.
>> >>>
>> >>> <echarles at american.edu>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a case in your argument but...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I do make donations to universities and a church.  Today my wife and
>> >>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of hygiene products for Ukrainian
>> >>>> refugees which included things like towels, toothpaste,
>> toothbrushes, soap,
>> >>>> shampoo etc.  This was done at United Church of Santa Fe.  As for
>> financial
>> >>>> contributions we spend $20k per year for tuition at Matthew's school
>> which
>> >>>> is a Montessori school for kids with executive function problems.
>> There
>> >>>> are a number of scholarship students whose families wouldn't be able
>> to
>> >>>> send their kids there without help.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The church group put together 137 packages this morning.  We donated
>> >>>> funds for the purchase of some of the stuff.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a billionaire you can donate half
>> of
>> >>>> your assets without any impact on your lifestyle.  But that's a
>> different
>> >>>> question.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Frank
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ---
>> >>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >>>>
>> >>>> 505 670-9918
>> >>>> Santa Fe, NM
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric Charles <
>> >>>> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> While some of the goals of groups like "Patriotic Millionaires" are
>> >>>>> admirable, I can never get past the blatant hypocrisy of it all.
>> Maybe
>> >>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right term. You could also see the
>> part
>> >>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship of the benefits of authority over
>> >>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase their primary claim: "I, as a
>> rich
>> >>>>> person, recognize that I really *should *give more of my money to
>> >>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly refuse to do so unless forced to do
>> so by
>> >>>>> the federal legislature."
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> What is anyone really to make of that position? Is it any different
>> >>>>> than trying to look virtuous by saying that you know you should
>> stop using
>> >>>>> child labor in your mine, while also publicly refusing to stop
>> unless the
>> >>>>> government makes you?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Obviously, I'm either procrastinating or unclear on how best to do
>> >>>>>> actual work today because here is yet another thing I meant to
>> talk about
>> >>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile back:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> A salon participant recently asked whether "greed" was our most
>> >>>>>> nefarious trait as a species. It's a great question for sparking
>> >>>>>> discussion. My answer was that the most nefarious trait of *all*
>> species is
>> >>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason over externalities, from pond scum
>> to the
>> >>>>>> Trust <https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust>. But to
>> >>>>>> de-emphasize what people think of as "greed", I said "Trying to
>> ensure you
>> >>>>>> have enough money to live out your life in relative comfort is not
>> greed.
>> >>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring billions of dollars, you feel the need
>> to acquire
>> >>>>>> more billions of dollars."
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires prior to that conversation. And it
>> >>>>>> seems legit ... a set of outwardly greedy people who recognize
>> limits to
>> >>>>>> their greed ... a recognition that there's a spectrum of merit,
>> some luck,
>> >>>>>> some effort, some systemic infrastructure, etc. Overall,
>> [m|b]illionaire
>> >>>>>> philanthropy (and especially effective altruism) seem like jokes
>> to me,
>> >>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here, let me given you a billion dollars
>> without
>> >>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your genetic code." Pffft. Give anyone
>> enough money
>> >>>>>> and you'll corrupt them fundamentally, often against their will.
>> >>>>>> Philanthropists know this. Effective Altruism is an oxymoron. You
>> can't
>> >>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic at the same time. >8^D
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion on Patriotic Millionaires.
>>
>> --
>> glen
>> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
>>
>>
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