[FRIAM] Patriotic Millionaires
Steve Smith
sasmyth at swcp.com
Mon Mar 7 16:59:04 EST 2022
On 3/7/22 2:17 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Do any tax return forms have an item that says, "Gift to the US
> Treasury"? It might work.
I can't remember the year I quit ignoring the "give $1 to the US
Presidential Election Fund" because I "didn't want to encourage the
Bastards" and started checking it because... ??? I think because I
thought it was a token vote for "take the money out of politics" which
is of course somewhere between an oxymoron and hopeless.
I'm a lazy stingy/generous bastard.
When it mattered, I didn't always itemize deductions. I didn't apply
for child-care tax credits, I didn't optimize by doing pre-paid
medical/etc programs to avoid taxes. I don't claim gifts to charity
even if they happen to be substantial (for me, that means 4 figures not
6 or even 5). I have sometimes gone without even filing taxes,
knowing (by rule-of-thumb) that I had not underpaid or if I had it was
in 2 figures and not likely to get me a visit from the IRS. This has
backfired (as most lazy man's shortcuts often do) of having them put a
magnifying lense on me for a few years when I didn't file with the
IRS/NMtax levying fines on those small underpayments whilst not wanting
to hear about the overpayments I let slide in other years... I'm
betting the US/NM treasuries are 4 and 3 figures, respectively fatter
because I CBB. And easily 2x or 10x that because I have never felt
like I deserved to use "obvious cheats" to beat them out of some of that.
I *do* drive on the public-funded highways and I *did* send my kids to
public schools and they did enjoy the fruits of various
scholarship/grant/loan programs for that purpose. And I worked for Big
Freddy via UC at LANL for a whole career where I was paid less than most
of my peers but felt like we *all* got paid really well (just look at
the service people/teachers in the area trying to get by on a fraction
of our professional salaries)
I don't begrudge paying a tithe to Big Stupid even if I *do* begrudge
Big Stupid's stupidity. But then I accept it, Big Stupid isn't/can't
be? any smarter really than a smart slime mold or a dumb jellyfish. If
I were more paranoid about Big Stupid I'd try to stay more out of her
way... if I were more tragically or often a victim of Big Stupid (like
being a young urban black man or many different subclasses of women,
etc) I might be more paranoid and therefore more P and Q minded or more
resentful of the taxes I voluntary put in front of the Big Rake, or
maybe more to the point, don't pull back as quickly as others would.
I still try to be helpful/generous or at least not-stingy with those in
my personal circle. Glen has indicated that this is somehow a
hyper-individualist kinda thing to do and maybe he's right. I don't
feel bad about throwing (some) money/energy into the wind if I think
there is someone downwind who can benefit from it. Hell, I like
leaving change on the sidewalk if I drop it, knowing someone else will
enjoy picking it up (and spending it) a lot more than I will. All this
because I am in fact a lazy, generous, stingy bastard and (apparently
from re-reading this) proud of it.
BTW, Vlada made it into Poland yesterday and the process of getting her
into the US/Wisconsin has begun. Apparently there are order 30K
Ukranians already in the US expected to apply for Temporary Protected
Status when our "quota" for *European* refugees under this status is 10K
a year.
There was a piece in the paper about a real-estate guy in Santa Fe
(Berkshire Hathaway) who flew to Europe, rented a car and has been
(might still be) driving (one gas-tank round-trip?) into Ukraine and
bringing back whomever he can give a ride. It sounds like a good way to
scratch the itch to help in person. I don't know if he is causing more
interference than good, but if he IS being good enough to haul in
consumables (like fuel and food) and not interfere with the "official"
methods, then more power to him.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 2:10 PM Eric Charles
> <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Glen,
> Intentional, but not distortion.
>
> If they were advocating more funding to cancer research, then just
> as you suggest we would want to see if they also gave
> philanthropically to support cancer research. If they were
> advocating more funding to the arts, then we would want to see
> what they gave to the arts (e.g., my Kennedy Center) example. Many
> rich people behave in exactly this way; I've seen tons of rich
> people over the years running those sorts of messages to good effect.
>
> The parallel in this situation: If they were advocating more of
> their money be taken in taxes and put into the federal general
> fund, we would want evidence that they were voluntarily paying
> more taxes than they owe. Preferably, we would want to see
> something in line with whatever tax policies they are advocating
> be applied to people of their wealth level, but I'd be happy with
> any sizable payment over what they currently owe under current IRS
> code.
>
> Can we find evidence of a single one of them even claiming to have
> done that? Not hard evidence that they did so, even just a claim
> to have done so. Has anyone on here seen such a claim?
>
> I obviously haven't done an exhaustive search, but I've been
> tracking rich people talking about this individually or in groups
> for probably three decades now, and I've never seen anyone openly
> claim to have volentarily paid the amount of taxes they would owe
> under the system they claim to want applied to them by force. I've
> never even seen someone talk about how the movement inspired them
> to pay /_any_ /general taxes over what they owe within the current
> system. It is pretty weird to publicly announce that you are only
> willing to do the something you claim is morally right if you are
> forced to do so by legislation. In what other context do we ever
> see those kinds of statements?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 1:04 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not clear to me if EricC is accidentally or purposefully
> distorting the message. In order for us to accuse the
> participants in Patriotic Millionaires (PM) of *not*
> supporting any given cause, we'd need to look at their
> individual philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and
> messaging of PM is inadequate.
>
> E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a "value",
> and we examine the donations of all the PM participants and
> found that either a) they don't donate any of their money at
> all or b) they donate to everything except the values of the
> PM, *then* EricC's rhetoric would have some traction.
>
> Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be,
> identical to what its members advocate.
>
> I've done none of that work of comparing PM's
> advocacy/lobbying and its participants' actions. Perhaps
> others have?
>
> On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote:
> > Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money to the
> government if the
> > point is that you think the government should have it. ¯\_
> (ツ)_/¯
> >
> > <echarles at american.edu>
> > A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to Wikipedia. 4
> years of college
> > education is cheaper than that at most institutions. *Any
> *millionaire
> > could just cover one of those, if they thought that was the
> best use of
> > their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of them, and
> still have a
> > significantly higher net worth than the median American
> under 40. We need
> > to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has several
> million, they could
> > cover a whole lot more and still be doing just fine.
> >
> > "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a morally
> crucial
> > activity and that those who have an obligation to support it
> should do
> > so... But I won't help with that unless I know a legislature
> is forcing
> > lots of other people to help kids go to college!" Well....
> ok.... but
> > that's a pretty shitty position to take.
> >
> > Maybe you think it's so important that you want to help
> yourself, and you *also
> > *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I don't
> like that
> > position, but it is sensible, and you can morally ground it
> in all sorts of
> > ways. But no level of moral importance should exist as a
> category where you
> > won't help unless everyone else is forced to as well. Yes,
> people take that
> > position all the time. But it is a morally shitty position,
> and we should
> > treat it that way.
> >
> > Phrased differently: Having the government pick up the slack
> when
> > individual action is insufficient can often make sense.
> Claiming that only
> > government action should happen, and then acting as if that
> claim somehow
> > relieves individuals from any obligation to live up to their
> purported
> > moral values, is crap.
> >
> > If you think it is important to support local kids getting a
> college
> > education, then step up. You are in absolutely no sense "a
> bum" or "a
> > sucker" if you help someone afford a college education and
> your neighbor
> > doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at all. The
> correct
> > response to someone trying to act that way is to try to
> force them to admit
> > the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen not to
> support whatever
> > the cause is that is in question.
> >
> > Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and adding on top
> of their
> > individual support a statement that they also think others
> should do more,
> > that's a much more defendable position. Statements like "I
> think the arts
> > should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX to The
> Kennedy Center,
> > while lobbying my federal congressperson for more tax
> support" is perfectly
> > reasonable, as is "I think we need to better support local
> kids going to
> > college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid
> scholarships this local
> > high school graduates, while also talking with my state
> congressperson
> > about upping state funding to state schools."
> >
> > Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask them how
> much more they
> > paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that you
> would find $0 as
> > the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across the
> board, certainly the
> > median will be $0.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels
> <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four year
> college scholarship
> >> or a Javelin missile launcher. The millionaire might be
> able to pay those
> >> individually, but no one else. In that situation there is
> no sales for the
> >> individual girl scouts to perform. At best a few heroic
> medium-sized
> >> donations.
> >>
> >> Some purchases will be out of reach without spreading the
> cost around,
> >> even over thousands of millionaires.
> >>
> >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles
> <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Marcus,
> >> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always talking about
> wanting to
> >> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so far as to set
> up a web page
> >> about how important it is to support the girl scouts, and
> pays to have
> >> signs printed and distributed around town about how
> important it is to
> >> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the girl scouts,
> so you send her
> >> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The neighbor
> takes a look at
> >> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do *think I
> should support girl
> >> scouts, I am not going to give you any money unless
> everyone else in the
> >> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too. Don't ask me
> to be a chump."
> >>
> >> What would we make of that?
> >>
> >>
> >> <echarles at american.edu>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels
> <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few months talking
> about their
> >>> efforts to review content for fake news. They advocated
> government
> >>> regulation. Commonality being that a taxation or
> regulation impacts them
> >>> and their competitors in the same way, so their effective
> power and
> >>> influence won’t be negatively impacted. “Don’t ask me to
> be a chump.”
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles
> <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Frank,
> >>> That all seems 100% positive to me.
> >>>
> >>> Do you also routinely publicly complain about how
> legislatures are lax in
> >>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of thing, because
> you strongly
> >>> think that you should do more, but are unwilling to
> without the government
> >>> forcing you to?
> >>>
> >>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are doing.
> >>>
> >>> <echarles at american.edu>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank Wimberly
> <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a case in your
> argument but...
> >>>>
> >>>> I do make donations to universities and a church. Today
> my wife and
> >>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of hygiene products
> for Ukrainian
> >>>> refugees which included things like towels, toothpaste,
> toothbrushes, soap,
> >>>> shampoo etc. This was done at United Church of Santa
> Fe. As for financial
> >>>> contributions we spend $20k per year for tuition at
> Matthew's school which
> >>>> is a Montessori school for kids with executive function
> problems. There
> >>>> are a number of scholarship students whose families
> wouldn't be able to
> >>>> send their kids there without help.
> >>>>
> >>>> The church group put together 137 packages this morning.
> We donated
> >>>> funds for the purchase of some of the stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a billionaire you can
> donate half of
> >>>> your assets without any impact on your lifestyle. But
> that's a different
> >>>> question.
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>>>
> >>>> 505 670-9918
> >>>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric Charles <
> >>>> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> While some of the goals of groups like "Patriotic
> Millionaires" are
> >>>>> admirable, I can never get past the blatant hypocrisy of
> it all. Maybe
> >>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right term. You could also
> see the part
> >>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship of the benefits of
> authority over
> >>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase their primary claim:
> "I, as a rich
> >>>>> person, recognize that I really *should *give more of my
> money to
> >>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly refuse to do so unless
> forced to do so by
> >>>>> the federal legislature."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is anyone really to make of that position? Is it
> any different
> >>>>> than trying to look virtuous by saying that you know you
> should stop using
> >>>>> child labor in your mine, while also publicly refusing
> to stop unless the
> >>>>> government makes you?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen
> <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Obviously, I'm either procrastinating or unclear on how
> best to do
> >>>>>> actual work today because here is yet another thing I
> meant to talk about
> >>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile back:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A salon participant recently asked whether "greed" was
> our most
> >>>>>> nefarious trait as a species. It's a great question for
> sparking
> >>>>>> discussion. My answer was that the most nefarious trait
> of *all* species is
> >>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason over externalities,
> from pond scum to the
> >>>>>> Trust <https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust>.
> But to
> >>>>>> de-emphasize what people think of as "greed", I said
> "Trying to ensure you
> >>>>>> have enough money to live out your life in relative
> comfort is not greed.
> >>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring billions of dollars, you feel
> the need to acquire
> >>>>>> more billions of dollars."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires prior to that
> conversation. And it
> >>>>>> seems legit ... a set of outwardly greedy people who
> recognize limits to
> >>>>>> their greed ... a recognition that there's a spectrum
> of merit, some luck,
> >>>>>> some effort, some systemic infrastructure, etc.
> Overall, [m|b]illionaire
> >>>>>> philanthropy (and especially effective altruism) seem
> like jokes to me,
> >>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here, let me given you a
> billion dollars without
> >>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your genetic code." Pffft. Give
> anyone enough money
> >>>>>> and you'll corrupt them fundamentally, often against
> their will.
> >>>>>> Philanthropists know this. Effective Altruism is an
> oxymoron. You can't
> >>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic at the same time. >8^D
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion on Patriotic Millionaires.
>
> --
> glen
> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
>
>
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