[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Fri Jul 5 22:35:41 EDT 2024

I remember a while ago learning about the late Daniel Dennett's view that
consciousness is an illusion. I didn't fully understand it at the time, but
my admiration for him and his ideas kept it in my mind. When I asked
ChatGPT to summarize Dennett's view, here's what I got:

Daniel Dennett, a prominent philosopher and cognitive scientist, argues
that consciousness is essentially an illusion. His ideas are mainly
detailed in his book "Consciousness Explained." Dennett challenges the
traditional notion of consciousness as a single, unified experience and
instead suggests that what we perceive as consciousness is actually a
collection of various cognitive processes and functions in the brain.

Here are some key points of Dennett's view:

1. **Multiple Drafts Model**: Dennett proposes the "Multiple Drafts Model"
of consciousness, which suggests there isn't a single, unified stream of
consciousness. Instead, various sensory inputs and cognitive processes are
continuously being revised and edited by the brain, creating multiple
parallel streams of processing.

2. **No Cartesian Theater**: Dennett rejects the idea of a "Cartesian
Theater," a central place in the brain where everything comes together for
a conscious experience. He argues there is no central "self" observing and
experiencing events; rather, consciousness arises from the interaction of
various brain functions.

3. **Illusion of Unity**: The sense of a unified, coherent self or
conscious experience is an illusion created by the brain's
narrative-building capabilities. The brain constructs a narrative to make
sense of its operations, leading to the impression of a singular conscious
experience.

4. **Cognitive Processes**: Conscious experiences result from various
cognitive processes working in concert. There is no special ingredient or
mysterious quality to consciousness; it emerges from the brain's complex
information processing.

5. **Epiphenomenalism**: Dennett suggests that what we perceive as
conscious thoughts and experiences are epiphenomenal – they are byproducts
of underlying neural processes and do not have a causal impact on our
actions.

Dennett's view is controversial and has sparked significant debate in
philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience. Critics argue that Dennett's
explanation fails to address the subjective quality of experience, known as
"qualia," while supporters appreciate his attempt to demystify
consciousness and place it firmly within the realm of scientific inquiry.

On Fri, 5 Jul 2024 at 21:19, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own
> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
> in a dialogue from Plato...
>
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
> the perception of oneself?
>
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>
>
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information
> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
> strange attractor.
>
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> ,
>
> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."   So,
> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call
> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this definition, we
> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define meta-awareness
> as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I correct in assuming
> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that
> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And further that you
> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>
>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>> Thought
>>
>> Jochen,
>>
>>
>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat
>> is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
>> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
>> consciousness.  *
>>
>>
>> *So.  Is your cat  connscious?*
>>
>>
>> *Nick *
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school,
>>> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of
>>> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the
>>> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
>>> of language and consciousness...
>>>
>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
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