[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

[Nicholas Thompson]

Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and
since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
conversation has the same quality.  I apologize for that.  my students
found it truly distressing.

So, if you will indulge me, why don't  you think your cat has
meta=awareness?   Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have
had that leads you to think that.   It would be kind of odd if it she
didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".  (e.g., scent
marking?)


On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own
> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
> in a dialogue from Plato...
>
> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
> the perception of oneself?
>
> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>
>
> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information
> feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a
> strange attractor.
>
> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> ,
>
> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."   So,
> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call
> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this definition, we
> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define meta-awareness
> as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I correct in assuming
> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that
> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And further that you
> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>
> Nick
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>
>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>> Thought
>>
>> Jochen,
>>
>>
>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat
>> is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
>> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
>> consciousness.  *
>>
>>
>> *So.  Is your cat  connscious?*
>>
>>
>> *Nick *
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school,
>>> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of
>>> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the
>>> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
>>> of language and consciousness...
>>>
>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
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