[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Sun Jul 7 11:12:16 EDT 2024

I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the planet,
but let that go for a moment.  Back to baby steps.

Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to
self-awareness.  Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some
set of facts I need to take account of.  To be honest here, I should say
where I am coming from.  A lot of my so-called career was spent  railing
against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology.  So, if
language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language,
then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness.  But what
if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in
a loop.  Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter,
independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware.  Is
self awareness extricable from language?

It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have
soul.  Descartes swore by it.  Is "language" the new soul?

Nick

On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:

> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they
> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now.
> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of
> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the
> mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals
> lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as
> language.
>
> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body
> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are
> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language.
> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>
> -J.
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
> Thought
>
> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and
> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
> conversation has the same quality.  I apologize for that.  my students
> found it truly distressing.
>
> So, if you will indulge me, why don't  you think your cat has
> meta=awareness?   Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have
> had that leads you to think that.   It would be kind of odd if it she
> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".  (e.g., scent
> marking?)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own
>> awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
>> in a dialogue from Plato...
>>
>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
>> the perception of oneself?
>>
>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>>
>>
>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an
>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the
>> orbits of a strange attractor.
>>
>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>> Thought
>>
>> ,
>>
>> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."   So,
>> can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call
>> acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this definition, we
>> certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define meta-awareness
>> as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I correct in assuming
>> that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that
>> the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And further that you
>> think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>>
>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>>> Thought
>>>
>>> Jochen,
>>>
>>>
>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your
>>> cat is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
>>> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
>>> consciousness.  *
>>>
>>>
>>> *So.  Is your cat  connscious?*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Nick *
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school,
>>>> from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of
>>>> languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the
>>>> same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
>>>> of language and consciousness...
>>>>
>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>>
>>>> -J.
>>>>
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