[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Sun Jul 7 14:08:52 EDT 2024

So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the
> planet, but let that go for a moment.  Back to baby steps.
>
> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to
> self-awareness.  Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some
> set of facts I need to take account of.  To be honest here, I should say
> where I am coming from.  A lot of my so-called career was spent  railing
> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology.  So, if
> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language,
> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness.  But what
> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in
> a loop.  Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter,
> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware.  Is
> self awareness extricable from language?
>
> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have
> soul.  Descartes swore by it.  Is "language" the new soul?
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they
>> lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now.
>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of
>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the
>> mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals
>> lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as
>> language.
>>
>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body
>> which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are
>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language.
>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>> Thought
>>
>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and
>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
>> conversation has the same quality.  I apologize for that.  my students
>> found it truly distressing.
>>
>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't  you think your cat has
>> meta=awareness?   Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have
>> had that leads you to think that.   It would be kind of odd if it she
>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".  (e.g., scent
>> marking?)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's
>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
>>> in a dialogue from Plato...
>>>
>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
>>> the perception of oneself?
>>>
>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>>>
>>>
>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an
>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the
>>> orbits of a strange attractor.
>>>
>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>>>
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>>> Thought
>>>
>>> ,
>>>
>>> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."
>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's
>>> call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this
>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define
>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I
>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and
>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And
>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>>>
>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>>>
>>>> -J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>>>> Thought
>>>>
>>>> Jochen,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your
>>>> cat is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
>>>> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
>>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
>>>> consciousness.  *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *So.  Is your cat  connscious?*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Nick *
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to
>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all
>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will
>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
>>>>> of language and consciousness...
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>>>
>>>>> -J.
>>>>>
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