[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
Prof David West
profwest at fastmail.fm
Sun Jul 7 21:11:02 EDT 2024
long time ago, in the early days of "virtual reality" I consulted for W Industries, a company in England that made full body suits with thousands of tiny sensors and effectors for the purpose of cyber-sex. They worked well enough but suffered from a "lack of resolution" just as early CRT monitors. Unlike monitors, like Apple's Retina displays, where the 'pixel density' could be increased sufficiently to be convincing; the body suits would have had to have a "pixel' density" several orders of magnitude greater than that required to build a convincing display.
davew
On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, at 1:50 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> During the four years I worked at the Robotics Institute I worked on the Factory of the Future project. This involved sensors, including cameras, temperature sensors, viscosity, conductivity and whatever else was relevant. Also actuators which controlled inputs to the different subprocesses in the manufacture of fluorescent light bulbs. We implemented some subsystems related to automated inspection of coatings inside the bulbs but conceptually we designed the whole factory. During that project Westinghouse sold all of its lightbulb manufacturing plants and IP to Phillips of the Netherlands and they stopped our work. The point is I am familiar with the concepts you mention. Even if that project had resulted in a factory that could manufacture light bulbs with minimal human supervision it would not have occurred to me that there was any consciousness involved. Intelligence yes. As for embodied intelligence? Sort of.
>
> Frank
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 12:23 PM Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com> wrote:
>> Frank,
>>
>> embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators like Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him?
>>
>> Consider the Simtable that uses structured light <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a perception-action loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological psychology) with the projector camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with its camera for human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to trigger corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the user. Is it embodied?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied?
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the planet, but let that go for a moment. Back to baby steps.
>>>>
>>>> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to self-awareness. Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some set of facts I need to take account of. To be honest here, I should say where I am coming from. A lot of my so-called career was spent railing against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology. So, if language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language, then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness. But what if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in a loop. Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter, independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware. Is self awareness extricable from language?
>>>>
>>>> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have soul. Descartes swore by it. Is "language" the new soul?
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because they lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now. Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me" moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails do not count as language.
>>>>>
>>>>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language. When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> -J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the conversation has the same quality. I apologize for that. my students found it truly distressing.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't you think your cat has meta=awareness? Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have had that leads you to think that. It would be kind of odd if it she didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that". (e.g., scent marking?)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant in a dialogue from Plato...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than the perception of oneself?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the orbits of a strange attractor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -J.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Great! Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving." So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ? Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness". Allowing this definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware. Lets define meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness. Now, am I correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am? And further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>>>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -J.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jochen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your cat is conscious. If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise. I had a facinnationg conversation with GBT about whether he was conscious and he denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for consciousness. *
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>> *So. Is your cat connscious?*
>>>>>>> **
>>>>>>> *Nick*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding of language and consciousness...
>>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -J.
>>>>>>>>
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