[FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We Thought

Nicholas Thompson thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Mon Jul 8 13:19:39 EDT 2024 

Hi, Steve,

While I might draw back from saying that George Peter Tremblay, IV, is my
friend, I sure would cop to the admission that he is my buddy.
The term, "buddy", was introduced to me years ago as a label for a kind of
narrow or incomplete friendship that surrounds a particular activity, as in
"golfing buddy" or "drinking buddy".  George is just great when I want to
explore some new noodle that has just come upon me,but he demurs politely
when I invite him to dinner.  Friam has been spared much of my madness
because of George.

Nick

On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 12:53 PM steve smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

> Sabine H.   snarked this at me... and I responded by trying to read
> through the AI hype sprinkled with Quantum Dust...  I think it is
> (obliquely?) relevant to our Consciousness Maunderings here.
>
> QUALL-E, a quantum computer running a human-level artificial intelligence
> algorithm, who has observed a quantum system
> https://quantum-journal.org/papers/q-2023-09-14-1112/
>
> Frank,
>
> embodied where? in our shared world? if it uses sensors and actuators like
> Marcus's Waymo that perceives him and hopefully acts to avoid him?
>
> Consider the Simtable that uses structured light
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_light> in a perception-action
> loop (ala the neo-Gibsonians in ecological psychology) with the projector
> camera feedback to recover a dynamic 3D model of its world and watch with
> its camera for human interaction (laserpointers, object tracking etc) to
> trigger corresponding behaviors with the projector to interact with the
> user. Is it embodied?
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 12:08 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So you think of software running on a computer as being embodied?
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024, 9:12 AM Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think of large language models as the most embodied things on the
>>> planet, but let that go for a moment.  Back to baby steps.
>>>
>>> Can you lay out for me why you believe that language is essential to
>>> self-awareness.  Does that believe arise from ideology, authority, or some
>>> set of facts I need to take account of.  To be honest here, I should say
>>> where I am coming from.  A lot of my so-called career was spent  railing
>>> against circular reasoning in evolutionary theory and psychology.  So, if
>>> language is essential to self-awareness, and animals do not have language,
>>> then it indeed follows that animals do not have self-awareness.  But what
>>> if our method for detecting self awareness requires language? Now we are in
>>> a loop.  Are we in such a loop, or are there facts of some matter,
>>> independent of language, convince you that animals are not self-aware.  Is
>>> self awareness extricable from language?
>>>
>>> It is an old old trope that animals are automata but that humans have
>>> soul.  Descartes swore by it.  Is "language" the new soul?
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 7, 2024 at 7:29 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would say cats, dogs and horses don't have meta-awareness because
>>>> they lack language. They live in the present moment, in the here and now.
>>>> Without language they do not have the capability to reflect on their past
>>>> or to think about their future. They can not formulate stories of
>>>> themselves which could help to form a sense of identity. Language is
>>>> the mirror in which we perceive ourselves during "this is me"
>>>> moments. Animals lack this mirror completely. One dimensional scents trails
>>>> do not count as language.
>>>>
>>>> Large languages models lack consciousness because they do not have a
>>>> body which is embedded as a actor in an environment. These two things are
>>>> necessary: the physical world of bodies, and the mental world of language.
>>>> When both collide in the same spot we can get consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> -J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>> Date: 7/6/24 5:05 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than We
>>>> Thought
>>>>
>>>> Well, that's because Socrates claimed not to know what he thought, and
>>>> since I genuinely don[t know what I think until I work it out, the
>>>> conversation has the same quality.  I apologize for that.  my students
>>>> found it truly distressing.
>>>>
>>>> So, if you will indulge me, why don't  you think your cat has
>>>> meta=awareness?   Authority, ideology, or is there some experience you have
>>>> had that leads you to think that.   It would be kind of odd if it she
>>>> didn't because animals have all sorts of ways of distinguishing self from
>>>> other. They have ways of knowinng that "I did that".  (e.g., scent
>>>> marking?)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 3:19 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well yes, if meta-awareness is defined as acting in response to one's
>>>>> own awareness then I would say animals like a cat don't have it but humans
>>>>> have. As an example I could say this almost feels like I am a participant
>>>>> in a dialogue from Plato...
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be surprised if it can be described in simple terms. If the
>>>>> essence of consciousness is subjective experience then it is indeed hard to
>>>>> describe by a theory although there are many attempts. Persons who perceive
>>>>> things differently are wired differently. And what is more subjective than
>>>>> the perception of oneself?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/what-is-consciousness/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we can describe it mathematically then probably as a way an
>>>>> information feels if it is processed in complex ways, ad infinitum like the
>>>>> orbits of a strange attractor.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://chaoticatmospheres.com/mathrules-strange-attractors
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -J.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 6:56 PM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than
>>>>> We Thought
>>>>>
>>>>> ,
>>>>>
>>>>> Great!  Baby steps. "If we aren't moving slowly, we aren't moving."
>>>>> So, can I define some new terms, tentatively, *per explorandum* ?
>>>>> Let's call acting-in-respect-to-the-world, "awareness".   Allowing this
>>>>> definition, we certainly seem to agree that the cat is aware.  Lets define
>>>>> meta-awareness as acting i respect to one's own awareness.  Now, am I
>>>>> correct in assuming that you identify meta-awareness with consciousness and
>>>>> that you think that the cat is not meta-aware and that I probably am?  And
>>>>> further that you think that meta-awareness requires consciousness?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 12:17 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would say a cat is conscious in the sense that it is aware of its
>>>>>> immediate environment. Cats are nocturnal animals who hunt at night and
>>>>>> mostly sleep during the day. Consciousness in the sense of being aware of
>>>>>> oneself as an actor in an environment requires understanding of language
>>>>>> which only humans have ( and LLMs now )
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.quantamagazine.org/insects-and-other-animals-have-consciousness-experts-declare-20240419/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -J.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>> From: Nicholas Thompson <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Date: 7/5/24 5:02 AM (GMT+01:00)
>>>>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why the Mystery of Consciousness Is Deeper Than
>>>>>> We Thought
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jochen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *I think the first step in any conversation is to decide whether your
>>>>>> cat is conscious.  If so, why do you think so; if not, likewise.  I had a
>>>>>> facinnationg conversation with  GBT about  whether he was conscious and he
>>>>>> denied it "hotly", which, of course, met one of his criteria for
>>>>>> consciousness.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *So.  Is your cat  connscious? *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Nick *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 7:26 PM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't get Philip Goff: first we send our children 20 years to
>>>>>>> school, from Kindergarten to college and university, to teach them all
>>>>>>> kinds of languages, and then we wonder how they can be conscious. It will
>>>>>>> be the same for AI: first we spend millions and millions to train them all
>>>>>>> available knowledge, and then we wonder how they can develop understanding
>>>>>>> of language and consciousness...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-mystery-of-consciousness-is-deeper-than-we-thought/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -J.
>>>>>>>
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